Maxwell Proffer Transcript - Day 1, Parts 1 & 2
July 24, 2025
[PART 1]
0:00:00 UNKNOWN MALE
[QUIET] The only thing I want to know is if [CROSSTALK]...
0:00:04 UNKNOWN MALE
Today’s date is Thursday, July 24th. This will be a recording of a proffer agreement of [PHONE RINGING] Ghislaine Maxwell from the Deputy Attorney General, DOJ. And the time is currently 9:16[AM]. Maxwell and counsel are arriving to the U.S. Attorney’s Office, and we will commence the proffer shortly.
[9:16 AM]
[PART 2]
[10:12 AM]
0:00:01 UNKNOWN MALE
I’m going to ask everybody to put their name on the record.
0:00:02 UNKNOWN MALE
Yeah, of course.
[SOUND OF WRITING]
0:00:07 SPENCER HORN
Good morning. My name is Assistant Special Agent In Charge, Spencer Horn, of FBI New York. Today we’re doing a proffer of Ms. Maxwell. The date is July 24th [2025], and the time is 10:12am. This interview is being recorded.
0:00:31 TODD BLANCHE
And my name is Todd Blanche. I’m the Deputy Attorney General, and before we start formally asking questions of Miss Maxwell I’m going to put on the record everybody that’s in this room in addition to me, starting with you, Diego.
0:00:49 DIEGO PESTANA
Diego Pestana, Associate Deputy Attorney General.
0:00:51 TODD BLANCHE
And then you heard from Special Agent In Charge, Horn. Mark Beard from the United States Marshal Service is here as well. And then David?
0:01:01 DAVID MARKUS
Yes, this is David Oscar Markus, and I’m counsel for Ghislaine Maxwell.
0:01:08 LEAH SAFFIAN
My name is Leah Saffian, and I’m counsel for Ghislaine Maxwell.
0:01:12 MELISSA MADRIGAL
My name is Melissa Madrigal, and I’m counsel for Ghislaine Maxwell.
0:01:17 TODD BLANCHE
Go ahead.
0:01:18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
And I’m - I’m Ghislaine Maxwell.
0:01:22 TODD BLANCHE
Good morning, Miss Maxwell, how are you?
0:01:23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Good morning, Mr. Blanche.
0:01:24 TODD BLANCHE
Good. Okay, so before we started recording we met for a few minutes. I introduced myself, and we - we chatted. And now I told you that we were going on the record. And before we start asking questions, I know that you’ve been given by your lawyer a copy of what’s called a “proffer agreement.” And I just want to spend two minutes making sure that you understand what - what governs our conversation today. The most important part of this agreement is that this isn’t a “cooperation agreement,” meaning that by you meeting with us today we’re really just meeting. I’m not promising to do anything. I’m not promising to ask Judge Nathan or any of the judges that’s been assigned to your case to do anything. It - we’re just talking. And so that’s the most important - important part of - of this agreement. However, almost as important is the fact that what this agreement does for you...
0:02:23
...is it gives you protection. So what it means is that the government cannot use what you say today against you--with some exceptions, which we’ll talk about in a minute--but whatever you talk about today, you have what’s called “immunity.” So that means that the words that you say today we cannot use against you in a case in chief, if we were ever to bring one, okay?
0:02:45 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Thank you.
0:02:46 TODD BLANCHE
Uh, there’s exceptions to that, the most meaningful one of which is that, if you say something today that’s not true, that’s a lie, we can bring a prosecution against you for what’s called “false statements.” So I’m a federal officer, I have several officers here, the FBI is here, and if - if you lie to someone that’s like me or like Special Agent Horn, it’s a crime. So you have to be truthful. The other exception to this that doesn’t necessarily apply directly to you, but if there ever was a retrial in your case, or if there ever was a - a criminal case - a future criminal case against you, and your lawyer or you said something different, or took a position that’s different than what you say today, we can then cross-examine you or a witness based upon what you say today. So it’s a little bit nuanced, meaning I can’t use what you say against you in our case in chief.
0:03:46
However, if you were to testify, or if your lawyer called a witness to testify, and they said something that is totally different than what you say today, we could then cross-examine you or the witness and say, “Hey, do you remember when we met with Miss Wax- when we met with Miss Maxwell back in July of 2025? She told us” - and then say what she said, okay?
0:04:08 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I understand.
0:04:09 TODD BLANCHE
Okay. Other than that, you - I - I know you didn’t have a lot of time this morning to meet with - with - with Mr. Markus, but did - did you have a chance to go over this briefly with him?
0:04:20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I did.
0:04:21 TODD BLANCHE
Okay. All right. So I’ve already signed it, as has Special Agent Horn...
0:04:26 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Okay.
0:04:26 TODD BLANCHE
...and Mr. Markus signed it as well. So you got a pen? Please sign it right where it says “client.”
0:04:30 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Right here?
0:04:30 TODD BLANCHE
Yep. And I will provide a copy of this to - to your lawyer so you guys have it.
0:04:35 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Thank you.
0:04:37 TODD BLANCHE
Okay. Thank you. So Miss Maxwell, about a week-and-a-half ago or two weeks ago...
0:04:48 SPENCER HORN
Can you see the light blinking on there? On the Sony? [LONG PAUSE] Yeah, there it is.
0:04:58 TODD BLANCHE
Okay, we’re just confirming that it works and it does. Miss Maxwell, I guess about a week-and-a-half or two weeks ago Mr. Markus reached out to me and said that - that you wanted to speak with somebody from the government about not only your case, but about everything that’s been in the media, and that’s been publicized about Mr. Epstein in your case. Did he - do you want to...?
0:05:21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
That - that is true, and I did speak to him, and I did ask him if - oh, and did tell him that I would be very keen to talk to anyone. Because no one from the government at any time ever in the - since the inception of the case—so dating back to the early 2000s—has ever spoken to me, and indeed, I believe ever reached out to me at any time to even speak to me. And that includes up to when I was indicted and prosecuted. I believe that - or I understand, I should say rather, that my attorneys at the time did tell the government that I wanted to speak to them, because I was very keen to meet with anyone so that I could tell - or have them ask me any question... I’ve never had any problem to - to speak to anybody. And I offered myself, and I kept asking if they would meet with me so I could talk to them. And for whatever reason...
0:06:32 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:06:32 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
...that was not happening
0:06:34 TODD BLANCHE
Okay. I have questions that I want to ask you, but I’m not - if there’s a path that - a question that I’m not asking that you think should be asked, I invite you to volunteer. Same thing goes to your lawyers. Just to start a little bit very briefly, can you talk about when you first met Mr. Epstein—I know that goes back a while—and just very generally talk about your relationship with Mr. Epstein, from the time you met him, all the way up until - until his death?
0:07:11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I met Mr. Epstein in 1991. My - I had - I had never heard of him or met him before, and no one in my family had ever either. My father never knew him, and I’ll explain why that is the case. I met...
0:07:35 TODD BLANCHE
Where did you - where - where did you meet him?
0:07:37 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I had a girlfriend who - I - I was - yeah... I had to moved to America briefly in - well, I’d moved to America in 1990.
0:07:52 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:07:53 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I - well, “moved” is a big word. I’d come to visit America in 1990. I had been running my own company up until that time, which was a company called “Maxwell’s Corporate Gifts.” And I had also been working for my father at the time. I had multiple jobs with him. I was - in 1990 I was working with a - a new company of his, a new - a new newspaper that he was launching called the “European.” And I was in charge of launching a magazine to go with the — the European. And I was traveling at that time from England to America, because my father was looking to - oh - well, he’d also bought Macmillan, the publishing house...
0:08:53
...and he had purchased the New York Daily News. And it’s true saying that my father always wanted me to come back full-time and work for him, but that’s a much longer story I don’t think we need to go into at this time. So - but I was always working with him. There was no escaping, if we were - as it were, to - to work for him. So in 1990 I had come over to New York to help look at some of the - he was having some advertising issues with the New York Daily News. And in fact, I met - I may have met Donald Trump at that time, because my father was friendly with him and liked him very much. And I think it should be said that he also very much liked Ivana, because she was also from Czechoslovakia where my dad was from. So I don’t - I don’t remember if...
0:09:53
...I did meet him or not in 1990 with my dad, but I knew that that’s how I knew about (then) Mr. Trump.
0:10:01 TODD BLANCHE
And this was before you met Mr. Epstein?
0:10:03 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
This was before I met Mr. Epstein, yes.
0:10:04 TODD BLANCHE
Okay. All right.
0:10:05 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
So I was already going backwards and forwards in America. And then in April of 1991 I came to New York, but I can’t remember for what reason - what business reason, but there was a business reason, something to do with my dad, at that time. And a girlfriend of mine, who - an American - told me - I - I had broken up with my long - I’d been engaged, getting a - with a very long-term boyfriend, and we’d broken up. And she said, “Well, I’ve got”--you know, as your girlfriends do--”I’ve got a guy for you to meet.” And I was, like, “Who is it?” And she goes, “It’s - he’s been dating my sister. You’ll love him. He’s looking for a wife.” I’m edging towards 30. I don’t need to tell you guys that’s a very important for a girl to, like, think about important things. I’m, like, “Sure, I’d be happy to meet him.” And so sometime in 1991 now - we’re in 1991...
0:11:05
...I met him at his offices in - on Madison Avenue. And I think the most memorable thing I can think about that is he was wearing a tie, which he didn’t often do, and it had a giant, seemed like a ketchup stain on it. So I was, like, “Wow, okay.” And that was how we met.
0:11:30 TODD BLANCHE
Was your meeting at his office for you to meet him just personally, or were you — were you there for...
0:11:38 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I was just k...
0:11:38 TODD BLANCHE
...work-related reasons?
0:11:39 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Not work - I knew nothing about him.
0:11:40 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:11:41 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I - he just invited me to come and have tea at hi... And I was, like, “Tea, that’s English. Okay.” But what was unusual, it was in his offices.” So I went to his offices and we met. And I found him very engaging, and that was that.
0:11:57 TODD BLANCHE
So - okay, so that’s how you meet him. So we - and again, I don’t want to spend a lot of time, you know, on - on this particular issue, but what happened with your relationships over the years from the time you meet him in 1991, up until the time he - he passed away?
0:12:16 DAVID MARKUS
Just give the highlights.
0:12:16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Okay, the high... So I was looking for real estate for my dad to buy some, and Epstein told me that he was also looking to move from his apartment, and would I help him? And I - I said, “Sure, I’m looking already,” so I could look for him. So that’s how it started. And then in 1991 my father passed away, and I returned to New York after that, originally to come back and help with the family businesses, which was Macmillan, you know? And then the debacle of my father’s passing hit the family, and our - and we lost all our businesses. And - and my family thought that it would be best if I stayed in America, because of the intensity of the press and the drama surrounding my father’s death in England. So I stayed. And Epstein said, “Well, you can...”
0:13:16
“...keep helping me. You can help me find a house, and you can decorate the house,” and it gave me something to do.
0:13:25 TODD BLANCHE
Were you in a romantic relationship with him at this point, or just friends?
0:13:28 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
No, just friends.
0:13:29 TODD BLANCHE
And while we’re just - with respect to your father, there have been multiple questions about whether he worked for any intelligence agency. Do you have any knowledge about that?
0:13:46 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I think most certain(ly) my father had background in intelligence during - because he was - I believe he did in the Second World War. He was in intelli- a British intelligence officer. I think that - my sort of belief is that once you’ve been an intelligence officer you’re kind of always. [LAUGHTER] It doesn’t mean that you’re formally employed, so I don’t think my dad in any formal sense was a - you know, employed by the - any agency. But when you are a very significant businessman and politician, as my father was, you meet with people over time, and you I guess trade business or ideas. I think if - if that would fall under that definition, that’s how I would I think... Now, he certainly - I have no formal knowledge of anything specifically that he did in that thing, but if you’re asking me if I thought that he did help people, the answer would be yes, I do.
0:14:51 TODD BLANCHE
Did your father and Mr. Epstein have a business relationship over the years? I know we’re maybe jumping around a little bit, but...
0:14:57 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
They never met. So...
0:14:59 TODD BLANCHE
As far as you know they never even met?
0:15:01 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
No, I - I - (inaudible)...
0:15:02 TODD BLANCHE
Oh, you know they never met?
0:15:02 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I know they never met.
0:15:03 TODD BLANCHE
Well, how do you know they never met? [LAUGHTER]
0:15:05 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
[LAUGHTER] They -just categorically know they never met. Well, because after - in 1991, before my father died, he asked me if I’d met anybody interesting or whatever, you know? Because I was still trying not to be sucked back into the family business. And I told him that I had met Mr. Epstein. And the reason why I shared that I’d met Mr. Epstein, because I believed, at that time, that Epstein worked for Bear Stearns, and Bear Stearns was one of our banks. And I knew that my father was friendly with both Jimmy Cayne and with Ace Greenberg. So my dad came - was actually in New York I think, if I remem- I may - I don’t think I had this conversation on the phone, but I - I honestly - we’re talking 30 years ago [LAUGHTER], so I’m not sure. But if I - and maybe I told him this verbatim, because I have a... I know that what my dad did, whether I saw it or whether I - he did it and told me later, I - that I don’t remember.
0:16:05
But he called both Jimmy Cayne and Ace Greenberg to ask if - what sort of guy he was, and was he even allowed to - because - well, no... So he s...
0:16:20 TODD BLANCHE
They never - they never met...
0:16:22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
He didn’t even know who he was.
0:16:23 TODD BLANCHE
...but they had - they - they knew some of the same people, it sounds like, or certainly the Bear Stearns connection was something that - that you...
0:16:30 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Well...
0:16:30 TODD BLANCHE
...that you knew that they had?
0:16:32 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
No. Well, he never had a connection with Epstein; he had a connection with the bank. I mean, Epstein - I’d never heard of him, or knew of him before. And I certainly - if my dad had known him, right, when I said this is who he was, he didn’t know who he was.
0:16:45 TODD BLANCHE
Yeah.
0:16:45 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
So he rang Ace and he rang Jimmy to ask if it was okay that I even knew him. And I just want to explain briefly why my father would even do such a thing.
[LONG PAUSE FOR EMOTION]
0:17:05 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Sorry.
0:17:06 TODD BLANCHE
It’s okay.
0:17:11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I’ve had some interesting things that have happened in my life, and one of them was to be found on an IRA kidnap and murder list. And so after that happened - well, there were other related - I’m - I’m not going to bore you with all the [LAUGHTER] horrible things in that vein, but I - if you want details of course I can. But after that happened my father wanted to put a lot of protection on me obviously. And I declined on the grounds that that would be a very life-restricting event. You’re all in law enforcement; I know you understand this. And so he had told me that, you know, I would be taking my life in my own hands, and I - whatever.
0:18:11
And so I think after that event and several others, where I had stalkers and all that thing that one has, he was always quite protective of me. And so if I met somebody he would try and verify that they weren’t, you know, going to do anything hideous. And so in case you thought it was weird that he would call Jimmy and - and Ace, it might - you know, you may think it is, but in my - from my perspective he was just - because he was concerned, I was in America, alone, and he had an opportunity to verify who this person was. And so I don’t know if I was in the room with him; I don’t recall. I know that at some point my father told me, “He’s fine. You can see him.”
0:18:54 TODD BLANCHE
Yeah.
0:18:54 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
“He’s safe.”
0:18:56 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:18:56 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Well, okay.
0:18:59 TODD BLANCHE
So we might come back and touch a little bit more on that at some point, but...
0:19:03 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Yeah.
0:19:04 TODD BLANCHE
...I went down a rabbit hole for a minute about your father.
0:19:05 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
That’s all right. I just wanted to...
0:19:06 TODD BLANCHE
No, that’s helpful. Thank you. So - okay. So you’re - you’re now in the ‘90s, and you’re friends with Mr. Epstein. Your house - decorating the house - or the apartment... What - what happens with your relationship? Again, I know we’re talking about a 35-year time period or whatever, but to the extent you can kind of, at a very high level, talk about it.
0:19:27 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Can I - listen, I think just full disclosure is the best way to go at this point.
0:19:32 TODD BLANCHE
Yeah.
0:19:32 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
So in 1992 I slept with him one time. And I was, like, “Whoa, that’s it. We’re going to be dating,” because that’s how I thought. And - and I kind of thought of myself in that moment, like, because if you - I felt if you slept with someone that you were then dating them.
0:19:55 TODD BLANCHE
Yeah.
0:19:54 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
That’s the world I came from. But that really went - well, that’s how I thought. And - but we didn’t sleep together again for, I don’t know, really a significant period of time. And when I say...
0:20:06 TODD BLANCHE
Like years or...?
[LONG PAUSE]
0:20:13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I don’t know if it was a year. I don’t - that feels - that feels long, but maybe nine months. I mean, a long time.
0:20:19 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:20:18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
And I just want to go back to - I had found a house for him to rent in New York. Because he had asked me - I’d been looking (one) for my father and I found one, which was a former Iranian embassy I think it was. I think it belonged to the Iranians or the Iraqis, someone.
0:20:39 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:20:41 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
And I didn’t know that he had any money. I mean, it was, like - I want to say it was $12,000/month, which to me seemed like a fortune. And I said to him, “I found this house but I don’t think you can afford it.” And he’s, like, “That’s ridiculous. Of course I can afford...” And he rented it. And that house came with - it was a State Department house, because it was - I think that was under sequestration or whatever it was. And I - anyway, I put it back together. But there were certain rules—you couldn’t paint, because it had to go back - when you gave it back to the country that... So he had this house, and I had moved into a 10’x10’ apartment, because all of our stuff had been either lost, or frozen, or whatever. So he became, in this moment, my lifeline really. Because I was, like - everything was - it felt very similar to this moment, if that makes sense. Anyway, so - but I had no key to his house. I had no free access to his house. And in the entire time that he lived there, which was I believe until the beginning of 1996, I never slept a single night in that house, never, ever. Not one.
0:21:58 TODD BLANCHE
But you - oh - so you - you said a minute ago that he fir- that you had slept with him on one occasion, and at the time you remember thinking, you know, that this meant you were in a relationship, but then it didn’t - you really were not in that type of relationship.
0:22:14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Well, I thought...
0:22:15 TODD BLANCHE
Did that change over - between ‘91 and ‘92, whatever, and - and - and years forward?
0:22:20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
So I did travel with him a lot.
0:22:24 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:22:24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
So I would go to his houses in Palm Beach. He only had that house actually in... No, that’s not true. He had the house in Palm Beach, and he had a house in Ohio.
0:22:36 TODD BLANCHE
In where?
0:22:37 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Ohio.
0:22:37 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:22:38 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
And he had the house in Ohio because of his business relationship with Mr. Wexner. And he had a - and I had to go and decorate and put that house together. When we traveled together we stayed in the same bed, but not in - but I didn’t... (inaudible)
0:23:04 TODD BLANCHE
Go ahead, it’s okay. Talk. So you - you stayed - so when you would travel with him to his houses in Palm Beach, Ohio, or even just traveling, if - if it was just traveling with him, you would stay in the same bed, so sleep in the same bed with him?
0:23:23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Yes.
0:23:23 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
[PHONE RINGING]
0:23:29 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Epstein told me that he had a heart condition.
0:23:34 DAVID MARKUS
A what?
0:23:35 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Heart condition...
0:23:36 DAVID MARKUS
Heart condition.
0:23:36 TODD BLANCHE
A heart condition, okay.
0:23:38 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
...which meant that he didn’t have intercourse a lot, which suited me fine. Because I actually do have a medical condition, which precludes me having a lot of intercourse.
0:23:57 TODD BLANCHE
So what - what was your understanding of his heart condition and why that prevented him from having intercourse regularly?
0:24:08 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I don’t know. I mean, he liked other forms of sexual activities. [PAUSE]
0:24:22 TODD BLANCHE
Well, let’s come back.
0:24:22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
[LAUGHTER]
0:24:22 TODD BLANCHE
We’re going to obviously spend some time - a lot of time on the actual conduct he was accused of. So we’ll...
0:24:30 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Okay.
0:24:30 TODD BLANCHE
...we’ll come back to that. So pick up where you - where you were talking about you traveling around with him. He rented the New York former Iranian house...
0:24:43 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Iranian, there you go, yeah.
0:24:44 TODD BLANCHE
...until around ‘96. That time you - I believe you said that he was basically life. Like, you were with him pretty regularly?
0:24:53 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Well, I - no.
0:24:55 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:24:55 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
So I never was with him regularly.
0:24:57 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:24:57 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
That is one of those misnomers. I mean...
0:24:59 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:24:59 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
...at the beginning I did see more of him. But I worked in his office, so I would go to the office and I would see him. And I would count in my head when I would see him - I would count that - I would - that would be a day that I would see him. But I didn’t - I never, ever stayed with him. I believe certainly until ‘93 or ‘94 - what I didn’t know was that I think he was still with his actual girlfriend, who was Eva Andersson, who became Eva Dubin. They had been together, my understanding, I think about 10 years. I’m not sure, but that’s what I think, 10 years. And I had understood from my girlfriend initially that they weren’t together, and Epstein himself had told me that they were not together. But I don’t - I don’t think that was true. In fact, I know it’s not true. So they were still together up until, I think, ‘94, when at some point in that period of time Eva met Glenn Dubin...
0:25:59
...and they got married. I think in ‘94 - ni- I don’t remember when they got married. But her - she was his best friend and his everything. He told me that he always wished that he had married her and had a child with her. And I know that they - she was family for him for his whole life. And I think even—I’m not sure this is true, but you guys will know if this is true or not—when he came from - back from Paris and you arrested him, I don’t know if Eva was on the plane. Now, I think that - either I read it in the re- in the discovery that I received, or I saw it somewhere. But even if she wasn’t on the plane, there must have been some email communication where she was in Paris at the same time and going to fly back with him, one or the other. I don’t know which one is the correct version of that. But - so they were still obviously very close, and remained throughout the entire... In fact, he - he...
0:26:59
...was - saw her a lot. And so I also know now, which I didn’t know at the time, was that he saw lots of other women. And I know that now because I can see - I can see it from the flight logs. And I know it now because I can see from the emails.
0:27:18 TODD BLANCHE
So you know from the case...
0:27:20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Yes, not from...
0:27:20 TODD BLANCHE
...that - what happened?
0:27:21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Yes, I didn’t know.
0:27:22 TODD BLANCHE
You didn’t know that along the way?
0:27:23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I - contemporaneously I absolutely did not know.
0:27:25 TODD BLANCHE
So - okay. So just - and we’re going to spend time on everything you’re talking about, but just to kind of close out big-picture your relationship. So we’re now in the late ‘90s. Continue on with—again, staying high level to the extent you can—about your relationship with him.
0:27:44 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
So after - so my responsibilities increased with each acquisition that he held, and each new project. So I believe the first thing that he purchased after was the ranch in New Mexico.
0:28:07 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:28:08 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
And so what he had tasked me with up until that--I think that was purchased in ‘94 if I’m right—so he had tasked me... One of the things that we did was visit—in my mind I say “every state,” but it wouldn’t have been every state—but many states to go look at real estate property. And so I know we went to Montana. I know we went to Utah, and it was - it was - to go look at real estate was fun, to be honest. And then I arranged for us to go to New Mexico, and he just loved New Mexico. And then I don’t remember how the ranch happened, I don’t remember that now, it’s lost. And then he ended up buying the ranch. And I think, if I’m right, it came from the - well, the Kings who may have been the Governor--I don’t know--anyway, bought the ranch. And then I had to deal with that. Dealing with that was extens... I mean, the way that I thought of myself, or the way that I think is the best way to explain how I view my role, was as a general manager.
0:29:08
Because each property to me was like a - a hotel. So the ranch was very challenging, because not only that, but it had BLM land. So to ha- maintain your BLM you had to have cattle. And I love animals. And so the first thing - and horses, and... So I wanted it - if you’re going to have a ranch, I like authenticity. And so I don’t think you should have a ranch if you’re not going to have the things that make it special.
0:29:39 TODD BLANCHE
So were you - were you paid by him along the way during this time?
0:29:44 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
So I - I became salaried at some point.
0:29:50 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:29:50 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I re- my memory is that I got paid $25,000 a year to begin with. That’s my memory. I may be wrong. And then with each - as it became obvious - because I kept thinking I was going to go home, “home” being England. And - but it...
0:30:07 TODD BLANCHE
Did you - and financially you were not relying on him - the - the $25,000 or whatever amount you were paid, were you relying on that money to live, and his generosity to live, or did you have your own - your own money?
0:30:21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
So there is a...
0:30:23 TODD BLANCHE
And again, I - I want to just make sure we’re talking about that. Like, keeping it...
0:30:26 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Like...
0:30:26 TODD BLANCHE
...between, like, the late ‘90s, you know, maybe I guess into a little of the 2000s.
0:30:31 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I just want to hit something on the head right now. There’s a tremendous amount of reporting that said that I had a...
0:30:37 LEAH SAFFIAN
...trust fund.
0:30:38 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
...- thank you - a trust fund. I have never had a trust fund at any time [LAUGHTER].
0:30:42 TODD BLANCHE
So how did you live? Did you live with - with - I mean, $25,000 is not enough to live on.
0:30:45 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
No. So I had - during this period of time the secret - secret - the Serious Fraud Squad had come to see me, in relation to my father’s passing, and to establish whether I had been involved in any way with his business or with any shenanigans. I think - I’ve told this story many times, so I don’t know if it’s now somewhat apocryphal, but I’ll you what it - my memory is. So I received a letter from them that said “go about [my] business”—and my memory may be apocryphal—there was a PS that said, “Are you Snow White’s cousin?” I had nothing. There was no - I was never involved in any of his business, whatever, so I was free. And then...
0:31:29 TODD BLANCHE
Were you - so - but your - you know, obviously your - your father and your family had a lot of businesses. Did - is it because the money - whatever money, or whatever equity was in the businesses, just stayed with your other family members?
0:31:47 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
No, there was no money. So my father was never attached to money. He was born a peasant, a real one—dirt floor, no shoes, no clothes - well, some clothes, but not - you know... Sorry, [LAUGHTER] I don’t mean to say - nothing. And he never - he was never into that. I mean, there were things that - he had his extravagances--he loved his boat and his plane, so obviously you need money for that--but there was no - nothing else. And there was not a single penny that came to any of us, at any time, ever.
0:32:27 TODD BLANCHE
Okay, so - so when you’re talking about your life with Mr. Epstein in the ‘90s, you’re - you’re not - you’re very different financially - you’re - you’re very different financially-positioned than he is.
0:32:41 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Absolutely.
0:32:41 TODD BLANCHE
Meaning he’s giving you money, he’s paying for your - when you fly, he I assume pays for your flights.
0:32:45 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Absolutely. Yes.
0:32:47 TODD BLANCHE
Okay. Okay, so you - you - I interrupted you when you were saying how you were functioning as general manager. You helped with the New Mexico ranch. So did - did your role with him continue like that for many years, or for how long?
0:33:04 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
So I continued - in 2000 - well, in - by 1999 our relationship had foundered. In...
0:33:15 TODD BLANCHE
Why?
0:33:18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I - well, two reasons. We were never sleeping together again, so we stopped having sexual relations in 1999. Not “full sex,” sorry, just to be clear. Didn’t mean that we didn’t still share a bed - bedroom sometimes or whatever. He had another girlfriend, and...
0:33:39 TODD BLANCHE
He had what?
0:33:40 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Other girlfriends. I definitively knew that it was over after 9/11 actually, because we were both in New York. And I don’t know--were you in New York on 9/11? I mean, 9/11’s - yeah. And it was a scary time if you were in New York. You didn’t know - I didn’t know - nobody knew what was going on. And he was in 71st Street, and I was in 65th Street, my house. And he wouldn’t see me at all. Asked me - his mum, who I was very close to, who’s in hospital at Lennox Hill, just asked me to look after her. And then I knew, as anyone did at that time, if you’re not going to be there for someone in 9/11 you’re never going to be there. So for me that was the (line’s end).
0:34:40
And he had another English girlfriend actually, from 2000.
0:34:47 TODD BLANCHE
Are you, though, still on his - are you still being paid by him at this point?
0:34:51 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Yes.
0:34:52 TODD BLANCHE
Okay, so - so go ahead. So what - what - at that point when you say you realized kind of it was - was it over?
0:35:00 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Well, I mean, I’m talking about the - the - I had had - there was a - I had wanted to get married and have children. And Epstein had encouraged me to believe that that would - I don’t know about the - certainly by the mid - late ‘90s I knew the marriage part was never going to happen. I had believed that maybe in ‘96, ‘97, ‘98 maybe. But then I realized it wasn’t that. But I did think that we might have a child, which was what I had really wanted. And I realized...
0:35:36 TODD BLANCHE
So - so - okay, so what happens between 2001 and then 2019 with your relationship with him?
0:35:45 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
So...
0:35:46 TODD BLANCHE
Give or take 2001.
0:35:48 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
So we stopped have physicality. I mean, that doesn’t mean we weren’t friends. I certainly did stay sometimes in his room. I mean, “friends with benefits,” if you will, just not sex. Sorry, just... And I started dating.
0:36:07 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:36:08 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
And I met someone that I fell very much in love with in 2003. His name was Ted Waitt. Ted Waitt you may know as the founder of Gateway, the computers. And we had an amazing relationship that ended in - went on until 2010 I think. And I was with Ted from that time.
0:36:38 TODD BLANCHE
Did you meet him through Mr. Epstein?
0:36:41 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
No. Well, indirectly, I suppose you could say - no, they never met. I was at a dinner where I met Ted, but it wasn’t - I was with President Clinton. President Clinton was my friend, not Epstein’s friend. And Epstein had flown there, and there was a dinner, and Ted came to the dinner. So I guess indirectly through Mr. Epstein, because it was with his plane, but I’d have been there anyway without him. I had - it was not to come...
0:37:16 TODD BLANCHE
Was Epstein on the plane when you guys flew?
0:37:18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
On that trip, yes. Well, yes. They - that - yes.
0:37:24 TODD BLANCHE
So when you say that the dinner was - was where?
0:37:29 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Hong Kong.
0:37:30 TODD BLANCHE
Okay. And so the - and you had flown over with - so who was on the plane for that trip? I don’t mean everybody. When you said - so Mr. Epstein was on the plane?
0:37:39 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Yes.
0:37:40 TODD BLANCHE
You were on the plane?
0:37:40 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Yes.
0:37:42 TODD BLANCHE
Who else, that you can remember? I’m not - you know, you only remember what you remember.
0:37:47 DAVID MARKUS
Was President Clinton on the plane?
0:37:49 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Clinton. They would’ve - he would’ve had his guy, Doug (Band), maybe Jason Cooper, maybe (inaudible), too. All…
0:38:01 TODD BLANCHE
And you - and so why - so - so how do you meet - so - so why - you say that’s when you met him, and that you met him through Clinton?
0:38:10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Well, it was - I don’t think Ted would’ve been there had it not been a - it was a President Clinton dinner, and Ted came to be with President Clinton, not to be with...
0:38:18 TODD BLANCHE
I see.
0:38:18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
...Mr. Epstein. Does that make sense?
0:38:21 TODD BLANCHE
Yes.
0:38:22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
That’s why I say that.
0:38:23 TODD BLANCHE
Okay. So you’re - you’re - so in the time that you’re dating, that you’re with him to 2009, are you still working for Mr. Epstein during that time?
0:38:32 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
So his - so it’d be true to say that Jeffrey tried very hard - Mr. Epstein tried very hard to - to keep me - to - working for him, because, I mean, this is a complex operat... I’m not talking about anything untoward, just the sheer size of the projects. I’m talking the construction projects, the houses, the staff. It’s a - it’s a really significant job. And I ran all the properties, the staff in the properties, the management of the properties that - and all the construction. And we’re talking tens of millions of dollars, the island (alone). I can’t remember what the budget was for the construction on any given year; it’s gone. But it - it was - these are very significant projects. And so that was what I did, and I managed the budgets. Well, not - I didn’t manage the budgets; I oversaw the budgets.
0:39:30
So I would just make sure that if you said you bought an air conditioning (appliance), I saw an air conditioning (appliance) and I could call the island manager—”Did you receive the carrier?” whatever, you know?
0:39:47 TODD BLANCHE
When did Mr. Epstein purchase the island?
0:39:51 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I want to say ‘96 or ‘97, something like that.
0:39:55 TODD BLANCHE
Okay. So we’re going to come back and spend more time on the money with - with respect to Mr. Epstein, and - and his wealth. But just so we can finish this, so in 2009 you end your relationships with Ted?
0:40:09 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
2009, 2010.
0:40:11 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:40:11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I can’t remember if it was ‘10. I don’t know, I’m sorry.
0:40:13 TODD BLANCHE
Okay, so in that time period. What happens next as far as your relationship with Mr. Epstein?
0:40:17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I don’t have one with him.
0:40:19 TODD BLANCHE
You don’t have one with him, like you don’t see him, or it’s just a different relationship?
0:40:25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I did see - I maybe saw him once or twice, maybe even three times. I certainly went to his house once, for sure, maybe twice. But I was not seeing him. The only time that I was in touch with him was when the - things happened, like things I mean in the press that affected me, or when the CVRA case was filed and there was all that rubbish that went out. Because I needed information. Because I didn’t know - I didn’t know anything about what was happening, and I needed his help—A, to under - I - I - well, that doesn’t make - sound right. Let me rephrase that. I don’t mean his “help,” I meant to have answers, so that I had an ability to defend myself. That’s what I’m talking - I’m not talking anything...
0:41:16 TODD BLANCHE
So when does that relationship change? So - so you’re working - you talked about when you’re - the physical relationship stopped, and then you’re still working for him, or with him, managing his properties and being - serving as, like, a general manager. You then start your own relationship with another individual from - with Ted from 2003 ‘til 2009 or ‘10. At what point in that whole period is there, like, more of a break where you’re no longer acting as his general manager?
0:41:42 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
So I - I wanted to have a full break when I started dating Ted. And he was clever. I - I - I suppose it would be true to say that I sort of viewed Mr. Epstein at that point as sort of family, if you will, like someone I could rely on. And I should have had more confidence in myself, I can see that now. But at the time, given everything that had happened in my life, I thought that it would... And I saw how he was with other people, like Eva, who seemed to be very comfortable (inaudible). And I thought this would be - and he always said I was like family. So he worked hard to main- maintain a relationship with me. He was generous with me. He let me use the plane, for instance, which was very generous. He would check in with my mum. He - things that were meaningful to me in that time. And then, it may still not have worked, but that his - his mother, Paula, had been in a very serious car crash. And I - she had become sort of like a - a surrogate mother for me, sort of, because my mum wasn’t there. I could - I could look after her the way that I would... [LONG PAUSE FOR EMOTION] Sorry.
0:43:17 TODD BLANCHE
It’s all right.
0:43:17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
...the way that I would’ve liked to look after my own mum. So I became very close to his mother. And she had been in a car crash, and - in 2004 I believe. It - it maybe have been ‘05, I don’t recall exactly. She took a - her health took a serious decline. And Epstein called me and asked me if I could look after her. And by looking after her that meant organizing her doctors, making sure she had new clothes, making sure her house was clean.
0:43:57 DAVID MARKUS
Where was she?
0:43:58 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
She lived in - in a retirement establishment in - outside of Palm Beach - outside of - it’s West Palm. I want - I was going to say something like the “Golden Girls,” but it’s not called that. I just don’t remember what it’s called. But it was an old age - it was a retirement home, if you will.
0:44:18 DAVID MARKUS
Todd, I don’t know - we’ve been going for maybe about an hour now.
0:44:21 TODD BLANCHE
Yeah.
0:44:21 DAVID MARKUS
Do you think - is this a good time to...?
0:44:22 TODD BLANCHE
Sure - yeah. So we’ll take a - we’ll take a break.
0:44:25 DAVID MARKUS
Yep.
0:44:26 SPENCER HORN
All right, so we’re going to take a break. The time is 10:56.
[10:55 AM]
Ellie is an author, editor, and owner of Red Pencil Transcripts, and works with filmmakers, podcasts, and journalists all over the world. She lives with her family just outside of New York City.
My goodness. She lies like Trump. It's like she doesn't care enough to make it make sense. Just deny everything. Thanks so much, Ellie. You put the pieces together for us.
Great article Ellie Thanks for the YouTube video. Stay safe be well.