Maxwell Proffer Transcript - Day 1, Part 3
11:07 AM
0:00:02 SPENCER HORN
All right, we’re continuing the proffer interview with Miss Maxwell. The time is 11:07am on Thursday, July 24th [2025].
0:00:12 TODD BLANCHE
All right. So just picking up where we just stopped, so - so you - you have basically a break. Well, not a break—that’s the wrong word—but your - your relationship with Mr. Maxwell [sic], professional and other, changes in 2003, ‘04?
0:00:30 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Yeah. I mean, and over the time that I stay with Ted, the more time I’m with Ted, the more distance I have with him. And then when the arrest—well, let’s go back—when he - whenever - whatever happened in 2005, and he became arrested in 2006.
0:00:48 TODD BLANCHE
So when he’s charged and arrested in what we’ll call the “Florida investigations,” that’s what you’re talking about?
0:00:56 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I am.
0:00:56 TODD BLANCHE
Okay, go ahead.
0:00:57 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
So I had - I was not in - well...
0:01:03 TODD BLANCHE
Well, were you part of that investigation?
0:01:04 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Absolutely not.
0:01:05 TODD BLANCHE
Did - did law enforcement ever talk to you as part of that?
0:01:07 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
No.
0:01:08 TODD BLANCHE
Did you - like, the feds never talked to you...
0:01:10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
No.
0:01:11 TODD BLANCHE
...the FBI never talked to you?
0:01:12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
No.
0:01:13 TODD BLANCHE
[CROSSTALK] Do you know...?
0:01:13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I never even received a phone call.
0:01:15 TODD BLANCHE
Did you - so you didn’t receive a subpoena?
0:01:17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
No.
0:01:17 TODD BLANCHE
Did the state law enforcement ever reach out to you?
0:01:20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
No.
0:01:21 TODD BLANCHE
As far as you know, did the government, either state or federal, subpoena your bank records, or subpoena anything from your financial life, during that time, during the - that time?
0:01:35 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Not - not as far as I’m aware. Now, if they did I don’t know it, and I have - I have no idea about that, to be honest.
0:01:40 TODD BLANCHE
So...
0:01:40 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
But I’m - I’m not aware of it and I would say no, but maybe you guys [LAUGHTER] do things that I don’t know.
0:01:46 TODD BLANCHE
So how did - how did you learn of that case—when Mr. Epstein was arrested, or did you know that something was happening before then?
0:01:53 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
The - the first thing I knew was he had told me he was deciding to redecorate the house in Palm Beach. It didn’t surprise me; it was like a rolling situation.
0:02:07 TODD BLANCHE
And - but by that time are you doing - are you - like he tells you because he wants your help, or had your relationship changed by this time where you were no longer kind of acting as his - as his general manager?
0:02:16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
No, I was [PAUSE] - I was still around.
0:02:22 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:02:23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I wasn’t gone. I was with Ted. I was traveling. I wasn’t daily - if you’d asked me where he was in any given time, I’m not sure I would’ve known then. I mean, it was - I - I felt like - I suppose the relationship moved into sort of like a long-term friend/family, you know, like...
0:02:45 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:02:45 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
...like I felt like he had with Eva, if I’m honest.
0:02:47 TODD BLANCHE
Yeah, okay. So - so he says to you he’s going to redecorate the Palm Beach house.
0:02:51 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
He - he asked me specifically which decorator he thinks I - he should use, because I had a lot of contacts with decorators, and he was not very good with people. He was useless at maintaining relationships with people who worked for him; I’m not. So anyway, so I recommended—I think I recommended; I can’t be 100% sure because it’s a long time—but I think I recommended Mark Zeff at that time.
0:03:26 TODD BLANCHE
Who?
0:03:27 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Mark Zeff...
0:03:27 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:03:28 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
...I believe. And I don’t know why. I - I don’t remember. That’s all lost to time. But anyway, at some point - I think his mother had died now. I can’t remember the timing of all of that either.
0:03:43 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:03:44 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
But I ended up in Palm Beach, and he had asked me to come and look at the swatches or whatever he was doing, because they had laid it all out over the house and various things. And I think he’d asked for my opinion, that’s my memory of this. It may also be that Ted and I were going to Palm Beach, because Ted had a golf match or something. There was a reason I was in Palm Beach; it wasn’t solely - I don’t - maybe that’s not true either. I don’t know. So I...
0:04:10 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:04:10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
...there’s a - you know, sometimes I went to Palm Beach because Ted was there. I don’t know if that’s part of that time or not...
0:04:14 TODD BLANCHE
All right, go ahead.
0:04:15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
...or Ted went there and left me. I don’t know; something. Anyway, I was there. No, that’s not how that went either. No. Anyway, at some point in that time I saw all the swatches—at some point in 2005, I think that was—and then I believe - I don’t remember - I think I got a phone call actually. I wasn’t in Palm Beach. I think I got a phone call that there was police at his house or something. There was a...
0:04:45 TODD BLANCHE
And would you have gotten a phone call from him, you think you were just told by somebody that knew that it had happened, or don’t - or don’t you remember?
0:04:51 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Definitely not him.
0:04:53 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:04:54 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I think it would’ve been the houseman.
0:04:55 TODD BLANCHE
So when that happens, whenever it was, that’s kind of the first time you know that Mr. Epstein’s being investigated for...?
0:05:03 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I - I didn’t even know what the - I didn’t even understand.
0:05:06 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:05:06 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I didn’t have a context for that.
0:05:09 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:05:09 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
It was like - I didn’t even know - I - I didn’t know. And then I didn’t - I didn’t...
0:05:12 TODD BLANCHE
Okay, so after...
0:05:14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I didn’t - I’m not sure even what I thought. I was, like, “That’s weird.”
0:05:17 TODD BLANCHE
So after he - after you find out about it, what happens with your relationship with him?
0:05:21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I asked him. I asked him what was going on.
0:05:23 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:05:23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
And he said - I - I - not to worry, “Nothing - it’s nothing, it’s taken care of. Don’t worry about it.” I was, like, “Well...” And then it all went quiet and I didn’t - he didn’t say, he didn’t share. I wasn’t part of it at all. I was off with Ted and I really just was...
0:05:40 TODD BLANCHE
Did he tell you - well, why don’t we come back to more specifics around that time period in a few minutes.
0:05:46 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Okay.
0:05:47 TODD BLANCHE
I want to just finish this opening part. So that case goes on; ultimately it ends. What - what - what was your relationship like with him during that case, when he goes - you know, when he - when he - when he gets sentenced...?
0:06:03 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
He - he asked - he - he - he told me - he said, “Listen, I’m going to jail.” I was, like, “Well, okay.” [LAUGHTER] And he goes, “I’d like you to stay on board to manage the properties, the animals, this and that, and just stay put, and I’ll continue to pay you, in case there’s any emergency. I don’t trust anyone.” And I was, like, “Okay.”
0:06:26 TODD BLANCHE
Well, when you say “continue to pay you,” had he con- had he...
0:06:28 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
He’d never stopped paying me.
0:06:30 TODD BLANCHE
He never stopped paying? So even when your relationship changes, you’re getting - does the amount increase from the $25,000 or so a year from the beginning? Like, how much are you getting paid yearly?
0:06:39 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I think it ended - at the time - well, we had different payment structures, and I’m happy to explain how that was. But I think salary-wise, if I’m right, it ended at around a quarter-of-a-million a year.
0:06:48 TODD BLANCHE
How much?
0:06:49 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Quarter-of-a-million, $250,000.
0:06:51 TODD BLANCHE
And when - and when did it end? When was that, that it stopped?
0:06:54 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
2008, or ‘09.
0:06:59 TODD BLANCHE
So...
0:06:58 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
‘09. When did he come out of jail? Whenever he came out of jail.
0:07:02 TODD BLANCHE
Okay. So - and over the years it increased from, what you said was you thought about $25,000 to $250,000--that’s between, like, ‘90- early ‘90s until 2009 or ‘10, whenever he stopped, is that right?
0:07:16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Yes - yes.
0:07:17 TODD BLANCHE
And how were you paid?
0:07:19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
W-2.
0:07:20 TODD BLANCHE
W-2 from which - from what company? Or do you...?
0:07:23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
He - like, I - he just moved me around. I went to this company, that - I didn’t care.
0:07:29 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:07:31 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
And I didn’t care, and I didn’t think that - I didn’t understand any rhyme or reason. It doesn’t - I just - you know, whatever.
0:07:36 TODD BLANCHE
Okay, so...
0:07:37 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
So maybe...
0:07:37 TODD BLANCHE
...so when he’s going to go to jail he says, “Can you stay around and manage everything?”
0:07:42 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Yeah.
0:07:42 TODD BLANCHE
And do you do that?
0:07:43 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I do.
0:07:44 TODD BLANCHE
Okay. And then - and then - we’ll come back to that.
0:07:47 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Well, not manage everything, no. I mean, there are other people at this point. My specific role then was very, very diminished.
0:07:52 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:07:53 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I reviewed the bill structure that came from the constructions that were still being - the island...
0:07:59 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:08:00 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
...and wherever else it was go - Paris at this point. Because I speak French; I’m fluent in French. And also my relationship with the French decorator was critical to him. In the French component part of - of that aspect, that was really vital. And so you would’ve had to find someone who was - well, actually and the Spanish, trilingual, you would’ve had to find someone who’s trilingual to - and that he trusted...
0:08:23 TODD BLANCHE
Did you...
0:08:24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
...to manage - you know, not steal from him, from...
0:08:27 TODD BLANCHE
...did you - so when he gets out of jail, between that time, 2009 or ‘10, and 2019, what’s your relationship like with - with Mr. Epstein?
0:08:43 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Almost nonexistent.
0:08:45 TODD BLANCHE
Why?
0:08:47 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I - I had just moved on, and I just didn’t want to have anything to - I didn’t want the drama. I didn’t want to be associated with...
0:08:56 TODD BLANCHE
So do you recall - when you say “almost nonexistent,” does that mean...
0:09:01 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
It doesn’t mean it wasn’t...
0:09:02 TODD BLANCHE
...some phone calls, some visits...
0:09:03 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Definitely.
0:09:04 TODD BLANCHE
...some trips, or what does it mean?
0:09:05 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I - I - I don’t - I don’t think there were any trips. Oh, I don’t - I don’t think so.
0:09:12 TODD BLANCHE
And where were you living during that time period, or was it...?
0:09:15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Which time period?
0:09:16 TODD BLANCHE
Between 2009/10 and 2019?
0:09:19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I was back in New York.
0:09:21 TODD BLANCHE
Okay. So you had no - so when - so - so your - you had phone calls with him on occasion?
0:09:29 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Yes. Well, I certainly did when it - whenever there was any legal drama or any, like, serious press attention. I always called him to try and found out what was going on.
0:09:38 TODD BLANCHE
Okay - okay. And then...
0:09:39 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
And I did email him at that time for those types of details. I was, like, “What do I do? What” - I mean, I was, like...
0:09:46 TODD BLANCHE
And - and then when he’s charged in New York, federally...
0:09:50 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Yes.
0:09:51 TODD BLANCHE
...how did you learn about that case?
0:09:53 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
In the press.
0:09:54 TODD BLANCHE
And had you, as far you know, been contacted by law enforcement before his arrest?
0:10:00 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
No. I wasn’t in the indictment.
0:10:03 TODD BLANCHE
No, I know that.
0:10:04 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Oh.
0:10:04 TODD BLANCHE
But even as a witness or - or asking you if you would give documents or materials?
0:10:08 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I had never - up until he - up until when my lawyers said that - I don’t even know - I had no knowledge of them being interested in me, honestly, I don’t - I want to say until he had died. Now, I know that my lawyers were in touch with the Southern District of New York at some point af- after his arrest. I’m pretty sure that had to have happened, right?
0:10:35 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:10:36 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
But I - my understanding is that they had not shown any interest. I know my lawyers went to see them once, I believe. And...
0:10:44 TODD BLANCHE
“Went to see him” meaning Mr. Epstein?
0:10:46 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
No, them, the [CROSSTALK] Southern District of New York.
0:10:47 TODD BLANCHE
Okay, the Southern District of New York, okay.
0:10:48 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Sorry. And that they had been in regular - in touch with them, and...
0:10:55 TODD BLANCHE
But now you’re talking about after Mr. Epstein died, or are you talking about before he died?
0:11:00 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I think - I...
0:11:02 TODD BLANCHE
If you can remember.
0:11:04 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Easily verifiable. I - my memory is that they were in touch with him when he was arrested.
0:11:11 TODD BLANCHE
Mm-hm.
0:11:13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I don’t know if anything happened until after his death then after that.
0:11:16 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:11:17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I don’t think they saw them - met with them, Southern District of New York I’m talking about now, until after he died. I know that they were in regular telephone contact with them, and that my lawyers believed that they had been told that there was no interest in me...
0:11:33 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:11:34 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
...and were absolutely stunned when I was arrested. Maybe “stunned” is too big a word, but surprised. I certainly was.
0:11:41 TODD BLANCHE
Okay. So let’s - okay, so that’s - that’s was a - a long description of - of what was a very long life, and that was very helpful. So I want to go back and talk more specifically now about particular areas, and - but that was a- a very helpful kind of foundation for - for us. The first - the first thing I want to talk about - you talked about earlier on, about Mr. Epstein’s financial success. What - you know, do you know how he - when you first meet him at some point you say, “I got this place for you to rent; you can’t afford it,” and he laughs at you and says, “Yes, I can.” What did you learn about his wealth and how he was - and how he accumulated his money?
0:12:29 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I can tell you what he told me.
0:12:30 TODD BLANCHE
Yes.
0:12:31 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
So I - I know that he was hired from working at a private school whose name eludes me at this point.
0:12:38 LEAH SAFFIAN
Dalton.
0:12:39 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Dalton. He was working at Dalton; he was a math teacher. And he met, I think it was Ace—I’m not sure—he met someone from Bear who hired him, because he was very good at math. And I believe that he then worked on creating a trading of [PAUSE] - oh my gosh...
0:13:13 TODD BLANCHE
Just describe it; it’s okay. Go ahead.
0:13:17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
He came - came up with some new type of trading system. Not - not a system so much, but as a - as a - as a vehicle - a trading vehicle.
0:13:24 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:13:25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I’m just escaping right now.
0:13:27 TODD BLANCHE
And this is while - while he was working at - at Bear Stearns?
0:13:29 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
At Bear Stearns, yes.
0:13:30 TODD BLANCHE
Mm-hm, okay.
0:13:31 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
And whilst...
0:13:33 TODD BLANCHE
And was this before you met him?
0:13:34 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Yes.
0:13:35 TODD BLANCHE
So this is what he told you...
0:13:36 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Yes.
0:13:36 TODD BLANCHE
...or what you learned?
0:13:37 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Yes. No, this is what he told me...
0:13:38 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:13:39 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
...himself.
0:13:40 TODD BLANCHE
And so - and then eventually he starts a financial firm? Do you know that to be true or no? J. Epstein & Company, you ever heard of that or no?
0:13:48 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I think it’s - yeah - yes. So hang on a minute. So I - this I did not know, but this I have subsequently learned...
0:13:56 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:13:56 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
...is that he had some problem or some issue at Bear Stearns, and there was some, I don’t know, disagreement. He wasn’t fired, because obviously he was still very friendly with Ace and with Jimmy, at least by the time I met him. But they were working with him and he ran - he had cli- money at Bear Stearns.
0:14:19 TODD BLANCHE
Mm-hm.
0:14:19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
His money, his clients’ money. I’ll come to that. But he started - he told me himself that he started a business where he looked for stolen money. So if somebody - let’s see - I’m trying to think of some intelligent way to say it, but I can’t think of anything. I’ve been with - not great...
0:14:49 TODD BLANCHE
So...
0:14:49 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
...I’ll - I’ll give it to you. So let’s say you have El Chapo—oh God, I don’t know where he comes from—but anyway, we’ve got El Chapo. And El Chapo’s laundering money or stol- or he’s working with the Sinaloa Cartel, and he steals money from the Sinaloa Cartel, and he moves it to wherever. So he’s got stolen money from the Sina- Sinaloa goes to Epst... This didn’t happen; I’m just...
0:15:09 TODD BLANCHE
Yeah - yeah, I understand.
0:15:11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
...just coming up with something in my head. And the Sinaloa says to Epstein, “Can you track down my billion dollars that the car- the other cartel stole from me?” And Epstein will go and find the billion dollars and will take a portion of the money that was stolen as a fee, and give back the remainder. That would be on a percentage basis.
0:15:31 TODD BLANCHE
No. But like what you just described, which I appreciate what you said, a hypothetical...
0:15:35 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
The - please, that was completely hypothetical.
0:15:36 TODD BLANCHE
But that - but that would involve, like, so two kind of drug cartels stealing from each other. Practically speaking, did - he was a - more of a businessman, correct?
0:15:48 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
So here’s how I think it started, is that he had a girlfriend. It was always (inaudible) always to the girls. I guess there was a girl—whose name will come back to me, maybe not, whilst we’re here, but I don’t know, maybe—there’s a woman...
0:16:00 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:16:01 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
...there’s always a woman. And he - she was the daughter of a billionaire, for instance. And that billionaire, whoever his - whatever his name was, had had some money stolen. And for some reason this woman introduced Jeffrey, and Jeffrey - I think that’s how he got business started. That’s what I remember.
0:16:21 TODD BLANCHE
And is that something he told you about, or something that happened while you knew him?
0:16:25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
No, something he told me about before I met him.
0:16:27 TODD BLANCHE
And so when you meet him, and - and once you’re part of his life in the early to mid ‘90s, what is he doing to make money that you see? He - does he have clients? Does he have rich clients? Does he have famous clients? And - and how - and what - if he does have clients, what service is he providing them?
0:16:45 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
He does have - well, obviously there’s the one very famous client that everybody talks about, which is Les Wexner. And that was a very important client to him. And he - I think it’s probably helpful to describe what I imagine—“what I imagine,” no—what I know to be true about what he managed for Les. And there’s some bits that I’ll be improvising.
0:17:06 TODD BLANCHE
Yep.
0:17:06 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I...
0:17:07 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:17:07 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
...I want to just make you understand, I was not part of Epstein’s business world, except tangentially and obviously... So what I’m talking about is I - what I observed, or what I overheard, or what I saw within the business. But I wasn’t responsible for any of the client’s money or anything like that. So separate.
0:17:27 TODD BLANCHE
Okay, yeah, I understand.
0:17:29 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Okay.
0:17:29 TODD BLANCHE
Go ahead.
0:17:29 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
So with Les, for instance, it was really all-encompassing. It could go from the structure of the business... So he would - he structured or restructured The Limited. I know that. And I’ll come back to that, because I also traveled with him and Les. And I was in business meetings with them on the plane when they were there, so I could observe and I could hear some of this. And whilst I’m not necessarily terribly business-sophisticated, I’m sophisticated enough to be able to at least have some knowledge of what was happening. All right, so then he restructured the business. He restructured his entire personal finances, and would also handle all of the investment strategy. I don’t know if it was - if it was 100% his...
0:18:31 TODD BLANCHE
Mr. Wexner is what you’re saying?
0:18:32 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Sorry, yes. All - this is all Wexner I’m talking about now. So let’s say you had a billion dollars to invest. So you would - you know, in people’s normal investment portfolios you’d have, you know, some T bonds, some this, some that. But Epstein’s strategies would be much more sophisticated than that.
0:18:53 TODD BLANCHE
And so just staying with Mr. Wexner, does - from what you heard or saw, is Mr. Epstein paid by him in percentages? Like so - so there would be a deal and he would be paid, or was - did you understand it to be like a flat fee? Was he a business partner? Like how did you understand him to be paid?
0:19:13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I think it was more à la carte. So let’s say - this is a conversation I actually - Epstein told me, so - or illustrated for me. He said, “If I saved someone $5 billion, [he] would take a flat percentage of that $5 billion.” He wouldn’t have $5 billion back. And he would take...
0:19:31 TODD BLANCHE
When you say you “think” that, is that because you heard him talking about that, or you - you...?
0:19:35 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
It would be a combination of both. He certainly told me that, and I heard him talk to people like that.
0:19:40 TODD BLANCHE
Um...
0:19:40 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I couldn’t - sorry.
0:19:42 TODD BLANCHE
No - no, go ahead.
0:19:43 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
No.
0:19:44 TODD BLANCHE
Did - was there - did - did he give - did Mr. Wexner gift a property in New York to Mr. Epstein?
0:19:50 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
So we’re talking about 71st Street. So I don’t know what the business deal was, because again, I’m not part of his business thing. But I think what happened would be that - let’s say Les owed him in, theoretically, for his services $100 million or whatever was, he could’ve traded that against the property.
0:20:13 TODD BLANCHE
But do you know that that happened, or that’s - are you - are you kind of - do you remember whether there was conversations about that, or are you just thinking that could be one way that it happened?
0:20:23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I’m not sure. And I’m not trying to be - I just don’t remember if that’s something I know, or if that’s something that I remember, or if it’s something that I’ve subsequently known. I believe - I believe that to be what happened, but I don’t want to tell you that I have...
0:20:34 TODD BLANCHE
Yeah.
0:20:35 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Does that make sense?
0:20:36 TODD BLANCHE
Did Mr. Wexner and Mr. Epstein - are you aware of they - of their falling out that they ultimately had?
0:20:42 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I think - I wasn’t there and I don’t know how it happened. I only know what Les has said in the press.
0:20:53 TODD BLANCHE
So you only know about their, you know, their “falling out,” or whatever you want to call it, from what you’ve kind of read, not from any firsthand knowledge? You did- you weren’t there; you weren’t part of that...?
0:21:02 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Correct.
0:21:07 TODD BLANCHE
Do you know somebody named Steven Hoffenberg?
0:21:13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Only from the press.
0:21:15 TODD BLANCHE
Okay. And so you don’t know anything about whatever business relationship they may have had, Mr. Epstein...
0:21:21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Never spoke about him, never mentioned it. I - I only learned about that—whatever that is, even - I don’t even know what the truth is of that story—from the press.
0:21:32 TODD BLANCHE
How about Leon Black?
0:21:34 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Oh, I did meet Leon. I do know Leon.
0:21:36 TODD BLANCHE
When do you remember—and again, I know we’re talking about a very long time ago—but do you remember approximately when you met him?
[LONG PAUSE]
0:21:49 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I could’ve met Leon - not really - so I might have met him... Nothing to do - because Leon Black is very good friends with other friends of mine. I would’ve met him - when I say “socially” I might’ve met him. How Leon and Epstein became really good friends, I don’t - I’m not sure.
0:22:08 TODD BLANCHE
But not through you, as far as you recall?
0:22:09 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Not - not through me, as far as I know, no. I - in fact, I’m - I’m sure that’s not through me.
0:22:15 TODD BLANCHE
Do you know what kind of work Mr. Epstein was doing for Mr. Black over the years?
0:22:21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Same as what he did for Wexner.
0:22:23 TODD BLANCHE
So we just talked about two individuals. And again, I know we’re talking a - maybe a 15-year time period, or even longer. How many clients like that did Mr. Epstein have?
0:22:38 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Well, why don’t I just give you the name that I remember, and that’s...
0:22:41 TODD BLANCHE
Say that again.
0:22:42 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Why won’t I just give you the names?
0:22:43 TODD BLANCHE
Yeah.
0:22:43 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Do you want the names?
0:22:44 TODD BLANCHE
No, sure, go ahead.
0:22:47 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Elizabeth Johnson, Johnson & Johnson...
0:22:51 TODD BLANCHE
When did - as far as you know, when did the relationship between Ms. Johnson and Mr. Epstein start?
0:22:56 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Nineties - ‘90- I don’t - I - ‘95, ‘96 - the ‘90s.
0:23:04 TODD BLANCHE
So during the time period...?
0:23:05 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Yes, we’re talking ‘90s. We’re talking when I was there, when I was around.
0:23:07 TODD BLANCHE
And how did that relationship start?
0:23:11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I don’t know how he became that friendly where he ended up managing her money; I wasn’t there. I mean, he - I really had a separate life. We really had separate lives...
0:23:22 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:23:22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
...except where they synced.
0:23:24 TODD BLANCHE
But it wasn’t from...
0:23:25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
It wasn’t from me.
0:23:26 TODD BLANCHE
...from you?
0:23:26 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
No, it was not.
0:23:27 TODD BLANCHE
Okay. And what’s your understanding of what Mr. Epstein did for Ms. Johnson?
0:23:31 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Same as what he did for Wexner. And when I - you have to understand, it - it went down to tiny details. So I remember - this I remember. This is an actual memory, that he would make the contracts for the maids, for the people who worked in their homes.
0:23:46 TODD BLANCHE
So he would assist his clients at times with - you’re saying, with even small things like contractual relations with...?
0:23:54 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
He said no detail was too small, because everything that affected how they lived and how they managed their life was something that he felt he was, if they wanted, would be responsible for, to make sure that the contract... So that if you had to fire someone they wouldn’t come back and sue you, or if - that - that sort of...
0:24:14 TODD BLANCHE
Okay, so Mr. Black, Mr. Warner (sic), Miss Johnson. Who else?
[PAUSE]
0:24:23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
What’s the name of the woman from Ohio? [PAUSE] Oh, well...
0:24:31 TODD BLANCHE
Know someone named Jes Staley?
0:24:32 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Yeah, I do know Jes.
“So when all hell breaks lose, and the world is crumbling, I will come here, and be at peace. Presently, I’m in the hot tub with a glass of white wine. This is an amazing place. Truly amazing. Next time, we’re here together. I owe you much. And I deeply appreciate our friendship. I have few so profound.” - Jes Staley to Jeffrey Epstein
0:24:33 TODD BLANCHE
Who’s that?
0:24:34 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
He was at Morgan Stanley, and at Barclays.
0:24:38 TODD BLANCHE
What - do - do you know whether he and Mr. Epstein had a relationship?
0:24:42 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Well, not a - not a physical one.
0:24:45 TODD BLANCHE
Well...
0:24:45 DAVID MARKUS
Business one.
0:24:45 TODD BLANCHE
...I didn’t suggest...
0:24:47 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
[LAUGHTER] Sorry, I just...
0:24:48 TODD BLANCHE
No, I’m saying a - a relationship in the broadest sense of the word—business, personal...
0:24:51 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Yes.
0:24:52 TODD BLANCHE
...both? Okay.
0:24:52 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Yes, both.
0:24:54 TODD BLANCHE
Okay. And do you know when they met?
[LONG PAUSE]
0:25:03 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
No, I - no, I don’t know when they met. But you can time it. Well, I don’t know that you can. No, I don’t know.
0:25:11 TODD BLANCHE
So - but what was the nature of their relationship as far as you know?
0:25:14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I think they were friends, and I think that they were business partners. Well, “partner” is too strong a word, but they worked - they did business together.
0:25:20 TODD BLANCHE
So did you - again, I want to stay focused on the time when you were the most involved in his life, so…
0:25:27 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
The ‘90s.
0:25:27 TODD BLANCHE
...the early ‘90s through early 2000s?
0:25:29 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
And the beginning - beginning of the 2000s, yes.
0:25:32 TODD BLANCHE
Did you - so we talked about four people? So...
0:25:36 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
There’s more.
0:25:37 TODD BLANCHE
Were there more? Okay.
0:25:38 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Oh yes, there more. There was a lady whose name I just can’t... Can I get my book? Maybe I wrote them down.
0:25:44 TODD BLANCHE
Sure.
[LONG PAUSE]
0:25:53 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Wait, where are my glasses? Over here, okay. [LONG PAUSE] Epstein wouldn’t really let me meet his clients.
0:26:10 TODD BLANCHE
What book are you us- what is that?
0:26:12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I wrote some notes for the meeting.
0:26:12 TODD BLANCHE
Okay, great, okay.
0:26:13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Is that all right?
0:26:14 TODD BLANCHE
No, that’s fine. I just curious what - what we’re looking at.
0:26:16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Oh, okay [LAUGHTER].
0:26:18 DAVID MARKUS
Not the birthday book.
0:26:18 TODD BLANCHE
[LAUGHTER] It’s not the birthday book.
0:26:19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
No, we’re going to come to that, I’m sure.
0:26:21 TODD BLANCHE
Yeah.
0:26:21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
All right. I wrote down some names, because I tried to make... I just want you to understand my - my memory’s not as good as it was. Because when I was in Brooklyn [Jail] I was in the SHU for almost two years, and I was on suicide watch for almost two years. Which meant that they woke me up every 15 minutes for the entire time. And it’s - it really did affect my ability to...
0:26:46 TODD BLANCHE
Understand.
0:26:46 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Okay.
0:26:46 TODD BLANCHE
Yeah.
0:26:47 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
So I’m not...
0:26:48 TODD BLANCHE
So you’ve taken some notes in anticipation...
0:26:50 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I just made some names in - in advance for this.
0:26:51 TODD BLANCHE
Yeah, okay. So go ahead. So...
0:26:53 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
And you’re happy to look at them, as well, if you’d like.
0:26:54 TODD BLANCHE
No, go - go ahead.
0:26:56 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Okay. Ah, well, funny you say—first two names, one is Wexner, two is Staley, three is Leon Black [LAUGHTER].
0:27:01 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:27:03 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Glenn Dubin was a client.
0:27:04 TODD BLANCHE
Okay. Who’s that?
0:27:06 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Eva Dubin’s husband.
0:27:08 TODD BLANCHE
Okay. What was their - I mean, if you can - do you know when - about when that relationship started?
0:27:14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Whenever - well, it wouldn’t have been before they got married, for sure. So if you’re going to start - you’re going to date that from wherever that was. And then Epstein was heavily involved with Highbridge Capital and the financing or selling of Highbridge to JP Morgan.
0:27:33 TODD BLANCHE
Okay. Go ahead. (If there’s a Dublin [sic]), yep.
0:27:41 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Okay, you’re only looking for clients, so... All right, there’s a woman - well, he - there’s a woman in Ohio—I just can’t think of her name, but it will - I tried to remember it yesterday and I can’t...
0:27:58 DAVID MARKUS
So this is a good thing. Like, you know, as you think of things, write it down. And if they have any other name they’ll ask you. But...
0:28:05 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Right.
0:28:04 TODD BLANCHE
Yeah, just...
0:28:04 DAVID MARKUS
...you - don’t - don’t force it out. So - so you’ll have time to think about this, especially today, this afternoon, overnight...
0:28:11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Okay.
0:28:11 DAVID MARKUS
...because we’ll probably meet tomorrow.
0:28:12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
But you can find them. I mean, if you basically find a billionaire female...
0:28:15 TODD BLANCHE
So the woman in Ohio who’s wealthy, that you worked with?
0:28:17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
And, well, you can identify her yourself because she had the largest Klein painting. It was huge. So you can find her, because it’ll be in a museum.
0:28:26 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:28:27 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
So that’s her.
0:28:27 TODD BLANCHE
And so he - that was one of Mr. Epstein’s clients?
0:28:30 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Yes.
0:28:30 TODD BLANCHE
She was one of Mr. client - Mr. Epstein’s clients as well?
0:28:32 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Yes.
0:28:32 TODD BLANCHE
Okay, who else?
0:28:37 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Well, I think that there was people - other people that he would, like, assist. I know that he helped Lynn Forester, who became Lynn de Rothschild. She’ll deny it, and she has, but she - she can’t.
0:28:52 TODD BLANCHE
And when you say “help,’ the same help in business or help...?
0:28:54 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Well, so - so - no - I have no idea what he did for her. I know he helped her financially. Her husband was the controller of New York, so - but I don’t - again, I’m not inside his business. But he would’ve - his - his - this notion that he had black- blackmailed men—or we don’t really have to go there—that he wasn’t a businessman, and that everything he did was a fraud, or a funk, or what- I don’t believe that to be true.
0:29:19 TODD BLANCHE
Why?
0:29:20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Sorry?
0:29:20 TODD BLANCHE
Why do you - so you say you don’t believe it to be true, but show me why you think that.
0:29:24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Okay.
0:29:24 TODD BLANCHE
Just from - I know you’ve been talking about it, that he was very - he was very conscientious, he was very good at math, eh was - took - paid a lot of attention to his clients. But - but yes, you’re right, there’s allegations of - of blackmail, or also that - that there was some level of - of fraud involved in what he did. And you don’t believe it. Why do you - why do you say that?
0:29:41 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Well, I - let me rephrase that. If there was fraud, I never saw it. What I saw, or what I felt when I - his - I ran that office. I mean, “ran”--I didn’t - I was responsible for the staff. People worked. There were lawyers. There were accountants. I never heard him - I never wit- I never felt anything, I don’t know, icky. [LAUGHTER]
0:30:09 DAVID MARKUS
Did - did you ever see him blackmail a...
0:30:12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Never.
0:30:12 DAVID MARKUS
...a client?
0:30:13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
No.
0:30:13 DAVID MARKUS
Did you ever see him blackmail a - an - a friend or an acquaintance?
0:30:17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Never.
0:30:18 DAVID MARKUS
Okay.
0:30:18 TODD BLANCHE
Well, so I think when folks talk about block- blackmail—and we can talk about - sorry about that...
0:30:24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Sorry - sorry.
0:30:25 TODD BLANCHE
...we can talk about that now—there are a lot of allegations about him—which we’ll - which we should talk about and we can do that now—and the fac that he abused young women.
0:30:37 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Yes.
0:30:37 TODD BLANCHE
Full stop, okay? Which means - the way that I’m defining “abuse,” as has been widely reported, is that - that he would cause young women in high school to be recruited to come to his house and give him massages. And a part of - and the - and as part of that, he would sexually abuse them, okay?
0:31:00 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Yes.
0:31:01 TODD BLANCHE
So I want to talk about that. But as it relates to blackmail, the question is whether you’re aware of any time that any of the individuals were talking about—and we’ll talk about others—received massages from women who were under 18, or may have been under 18, and that whether there was any sexual assaults or sexual contact between any of these people and those masseuses, which would’ve allowed then, Mr. Epstein, potentially, to blackmail them and say, “You have to continue to work with me,” or “You have to give me money, or else I’m going to tell the world that - that - that you did this.”
0:31:43 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Right. I - I think this is a really good place to start with how this story began.
0:31:49 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:31:51 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
So even - let’s assume that that premise is correct, that he was doing that and he was going to tell everybody - you know, going to say, “Oh, you know, you had ima- inappropriate relations with an underage girl.” If you don’t have a video or photograph - photographic evidence... Because I - I’m not sure that even the FBI would take that—well, maybe today, but certainly not back then—would take that seriously. So you have to have something to say, “Hey, you know, look, I’ve got this video of you doing terrible things,” and you need to. So I built those houses, many of them. I decorated those houses. I put the electricians in for the wiring. I never wired, nor saw, a single house that had any type of inappropriate, let’s say, video surveillance.
0:32:52 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
And I’ll define that for you. “Inappropriate surveillance” would mean in a bathroom, in a bedroom, in any private area of a home.
0:33:00 TODD BLANCHE
In a room where there were massages given?
0:33:04 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
“Inappropriate.” I would say - I would define “appropriate” surveillance to be the front door of a house, or potentially, as in 71st Street, the physical plant. Anywhere else would be grotesque.
0:33:24 TODD BLANCHE
So I just want to come back to - I know - I’m just hopefully stating the obvious, but when you say “the houses,” you’re talking about his New York...
0:33:32 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Yes.
0:33:34 TODD BLANCHE
...brownstone?
0:33:35 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Yes.
0:33:36 TODD BLANCHE
You’re talking about the island in - in the Caribbean?
0:33:40 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Yes.
0:33:41 TODD BLANCHE
You’re talking about the residence in Palm Beach?
0:33:44 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Yes.
0:33:44 TODD BLANCHE
And you’re talking about the ranch in New Mexico?
0:33:47 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Yes.
0:33:47 TODD BLANCHE
Anywhere else?
0:33:48 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Paris.
0:33:49 TODD BLANCHE
And in Paris. And so...
0:33:51 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
And the plane. I saw some ridiculous thing with the plane...
0:33:53 TODD BLANCHE
And the plane, okay.
0:33:54 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
...that was, well, my (inaudible), yes. I didn’t...
0:33:55 TODD BLANCHE
So...
0:33:56 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
...I didn’t hire any electrician on the plane. Okay [LAUGHTER].
0:33:57 TODD BLANCHE
So unequivocally - unequivocally, from what you know—and you only know what you know...
0:34:02 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I only know what I know.
0:34:03 TODD BLANCHE
...but from what you know, you do not believe a camera exists, or a video camera, or a camera that takes pictures, inside any of his residences?
0:34:16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Correct.
0:34:17 TODD BLANCHE
So even the appropriate cameras that you just talked about, which would be kind of exterior security cameras, did you know whether there was any cameras, that you’re aware of, inside any of the locations?
0:34:29 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Never, with one exception.
0:34:31 TODD BLANCHE
Okay, what’s the exception?
0:34:32 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
The exception is Palm Beach.
0:34:34 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:34:34 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
And the reason - so in Palm Beach Epstein was having money stolen. He noticed money was being stolen form his briefcase - we’ll call it his “briefcase.” And he called in the Palm Beach police, and they, the Palm Beach police, installed cameras on where he kept his briefcase.
0:35:00 TODD BLANCHE
Where was that, do you remember?
0:35:01 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
At his desk in... So the house - on the ground floor was - he had a desk sort of in a corner. There was that camera. I think there was another camera - I think there were two or maybe three cameras, I believe only on the ground floor, wherever he may have had... Maybe - and he had another office in the cabana--there may have been a camera there.
0:35:23 TODD BLANCHE
When was this? I’m not looking for an exact date, but what time period are you thinking about when you say this?
0:35:29 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
2003. I think I can date it for you precisely actually, 2003. I’m pretty firm on that date.
0:35:36 TODD BLANCHE
So...
0:35:36 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
And I can be firm because John (Juan) Alessi, the butler, was fired in the end of 2002, and he was the thief.
0:35:47 TODD BLANCHE
So aside from law enforcement installing a camera to try to catch somebody stealing money from Mr. Epstein, you’re not aware of any cameras at the island? [PAUSE] No. Sorry, you’re - just so we record it, because...
0:36:05 DAVID MARKUS
Because it’s [CROSSTALK]...
0:36:05 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Oh, sorry [LAUGHTER] - sorry.
0:36:06 TODD BLANCHE
[LAUGHTER] No, that’s okay. You were nodding your head, “no.” So what about...?
0:36:10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
No cameras anywhere, outside of possibly that would - I would consider - myself, I would consider normal. So the garage gate, something like that, a front door.
0:36:22 TODD BLANCHE
Outside, like security cameras?
0:36:23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Security cameras.
0:36:24 TODD BLANCHE
No, I’m - I’m...
0:36:24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
And - and there were cameras inside in the 71st Street that did - the plant, the physical plant, because it was a commercial building. So you had the whole - that’s a real thing there - it’s a commercial building. And there were camera - there was one camera one the - on the front door, internal - from the internal - that did the front door, as I recall. But I - there were no other cameras inside the house.
0:36:46 TODD BLANCHE
Did you ever - how about photographs? Did you ever observe Mr. Epstein, or anybody around him, take pictures of anybody in compromising positions with women or with - or with anybody?
0:37:03 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
No.
0:37:04 TODD BLANCHE
Did you ever hear, when you were present for conversations that Mr. Epstein was having, or others were having, anybody accuse him of blackmailing them or of trying to extort them because of something Mr. Epstein knew?
0:37:20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
No.
0:37:23 TODD BLANCHE
There have been - and - and you - you - in the discovery you got in the New York case, okay...
0:37:32 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Yes.
0:37:34 TODD BLANCHE
...and in the civil cases that you’ve been part of...
0:37:39 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Yes.
0:37:39 TODD BLANCHE
...associated with Mr. Epstein, have you ever been given or been - ever been told that video exists, like what we’re talking about, or photos were taken that - that were compromising?
0:37:52 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
So in the - in both of those, I received no pictures or anything from the civil case.
0:37:58 TODD BLANCHE
Mm-hm.
0:37:58 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
But in the criminal case I received videos of Epstein talking to women and stuff like that. I did get those. I also saw binders, photographs of women - indeterminate - I never saw any - well, I don’t know. I don’t know how old some of these women were. There were definitely some of the victims from Palm Beach, the photographs of them in - in - without clothing.
0:38:26 TODD BLANCHE
And in that - in those photographs were - the victims that were photographed, were there any of the people you’ve talked about? Like were there men with the victims, or were they just photographs of the victims?
0:38:40 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
There was no men with these pictures. There was no client of his with those pictures. They would be standalone, for want of a better word, like, “modeling shots.” If you were - if you - if you were - I don’t know.
0:38:58 DAVID MARKUS
Pictures that Epstein had with the girls, but not Epstein with the clients and the girls?
0:39:03 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Correct.
0:39:04 TODD BLANCHE
Did you - I understand you said you got those in the discovery. Did you know those - those pictures - pictures like that existed? So I’m - right now I’m talking about the photographs of victims, or photographs of women, that Mr. Epstein had on his computer, or wherever he had them. Did you know that those photos existed before you got them in discovery?
0:39:31 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Some of them, absolutely, because they were in his house. Some of these pictures were on his, you know, credenza or whatever.
0:39:38 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:39:42 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Some pictures I’ve simply never seen before. I mean, there was - I - I had never seen some of them. Some of them I had, some of them I hadn’t. I mean...
0:39:50 TODD BLANCHE
Did you - so - so you’re right, and I - I accept that having video or photographs of somebody famous or powerful in a compromising position would be good blackmail. But - so separate - putting aside what you’ve said about the fact that you don’t know of any existence of those, did you observe over the years the folks we’re talking about, or others, which we can talk about, getting massages from young women?
0:40:22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
So I just - I think it’s really helpful to understand a few things that has been missed in this whole mishigas.
0:40:34 DAVID MARKUS
That’s a technical term.
0:40:36 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
[LAUGHTER]
0:40:36 TODD BLANCHE
I’ll look it up later. Go ahead.
0:40:42 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I’ve thought about this obviously a lot, and I’ve given it...
0:40:44 TODD BLANCHE
Yep.
0:40:44 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
...some - so this is the benefit of - some benefit of what I saw and some benefit of what I now think. So just for clarity’s sake. I think - I just want to say for the record that I do believe that Epstein did a lot of - not all - but some of what he’s accused of. And I’m not here to defend him in any respect whatsoever, and I don’t want to. And I don’t think he requires, nor deserves, any type of protection of - from me in any way to sugarcoat what he did or didn’t do. So there’s that. However, the man I met and the man he became, I believe that there is a progression. And I don’t think that the man I met is the man that he became. I believe he became that man over a period of time.
0:41:42
Now, we can discuss anything you want and I’ll tell you everything I know, but I think somebody who has an interest—however you define that—in underage people is obviously someone who is unwell. But I don’t think that you wake up one day and you start doing what he’s accused of. I think this is something that you develop or you progress to. I - I think, because...
0:42:17 TODD BLANCHE
Ghislaine, before - before you get into all that, let’s answer the top-line question...
0:42:20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Right - right.
0:42:21 TODD BLANCHE
...and then get into it.
0:42:22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Okay, the top-line question is...?
0:42:24 TODD BLANCHE
Did you ever see any of these people with underage women?
0:42:26 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
No - no, I - I - so the reason I’m saying that is not - is not to avoid that question, but it’s because by the time - when you’re talking in the ‘90s, I don’t think he was there. I - there’s - that description, I think that this - what you’re talking about is a later version.
0:42:44 TODD BLANCHE
Yeah, and...
0:42:44 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Does that - is that...?
0:42:45 TODD BLANCHE
No, I understand that. And I do want to talk - I’m not...
0:42:48 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
So it’s just - I’m - I think you need to separate the periods of time.
0:42:51 TODD BLANCHE
Sure.
0:42:52 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Because it - this - one of the things that was definitely missing in my trial, and definitely missing from the narrative, is this notion, this - everything happened, and he was always... But no, I don’t - I don’t believe that to be true.
0:43:03 TODD BLANCHE
So I’m - that - that’s fine, and I do want to talk about that. I’m not - I’m not pushing that away. I’m just putting it aside for a moment. What Mr. Epstein did, and - and frankly, what - what you did, or are accused of doing, is one thing that I - that we’ll talk about. But what - right now what I want to understand is - is whether one of the ways that Mr. Epstein befriended his clients or - or took care of them, or some would say “blackmail” them, was by encouraging them to have - to interact with - with women, underage or not.
0:43:42 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
So I think in the ‘90s he may have encouraged them, but these were people who were in their 20s or 30s.
0:43:48 TODD BLANCHE
So - so, and I understand that.
0:43:49 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
May have - so he would have a masseuse, right? And he did, male and female, by the way, in the ‘90s. That’s never been discussed [LAUGHTER]. Both in yoga and everything, there were men as well as women. And so if he would travel—and I can show them to you; I highlighted them on the flight record so you could see that there really were men that were also there—he would say, “Would you like to do yoga with Tito?” or “Would you like a massage with this one?” But they would be in their late 20s, and professional masseuses.
0:44:18 TODD BLANCHE
So...
0:44:19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
So I think there’s a distinction.
0:44:20 TODD BLANCHE
And I want to talk about actual individuals here, but - and I understand the distinction between somebody who’s an adult and - and - and someone who’s underage. But even with somebody who’s an adult, did you know Mr. Epstein to encourage folks to do that, whether it’s a client or somebody else?
0:44:37 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
So with a - with a - I certainly witnessed him... So if you were staying with him and you had a massage that - he would often travel with a masseuse. He would say, “Hey, would you like a massage?” and he did do that, yes.
0:44:50 TODD BLANCHE
But would you, or him, or anybody else follow up with the masseuse afterwards to find out if there was any inappropriate sexual contact?
0:44:58 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I never did, no.
0:44:59 TODD BLANCHE
So meaning - and then coming back to the blackmail issue.
0:45:01 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Oh, I see, sorry. [LAUGHTER]
0:45:01 TODD BLANCHE
There’s nothing wrong with getting a massage - of course not - especially, you know, as - especially if somebody’s obviously an adult and a masseuse. There’s - I’m not quibbling with that. But my question is, that there’s a lot of accusations that - that one of the way) Mr. Maxwell [sic] - I’m sorry - Mr. Epstein was successful was - was through this idea of blackmail.
0:45:20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I never...
0:45:20 TODD BLANCHE
And yes, young - young women and - and is a crime. Children are - is a crime.
0:45:25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Absolutely.
0:45:25 TODD BLANCHE
But even women over the age of 18, if - if Mr. Epstein encouraged these men, or whomever, to get massages and have inappropriate sexual contact with the masseuses, that’s - that’s a separate issue, maybe - maybe slightly nuanced. But did you ever know him to do that?
0:45:43 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
No, I never did absolutely, myself. I never heard him ask someone. I never - I never heard that. I never - no one - in the entire time I was with him, or friends with him, or had anyone - no one ever reported to me or came to me and said that anything inappropriate happened, or was upset by - I never saw tear- I never saw, ever, any of that.
0:46:05 TODD BLANCHE
And when you say, “No one reported to me,” meaning like the masseuses or...
0:46:09 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Never.
0:46:09 TODD BLANCHE
...any of the house staff...
0:46:10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Never.
0:46:11 DAVID MARKUS
...or the clients...
0:46:12 TODD BLANCHE
...or the clients themselves?
0:46:13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Never.
0:46:19 TODD BLANCHE
Okay. So - so let’s - again, I want to stay - and - and coming back now to what you were talking about a moment ago with Mr. Epstein’s kind of progression or - or - or getting worse. So just staying within the ‘90s, what role - what did - what role did you have, or what did you observe—which are two different issues, but both important—with respect to recruiting masseuses to come to either, I guess, Palm Beach, or to travel, or eventually New Mexico? What role did you have in that?
0:46:53 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
He asked me to find masseuses for him.
0:46:55 TODD BLANCHE
Say that again.
0:46:55 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
He asked me if I could find him masseuses.
0:46:57 TODD BLANCHE
Okay. Like, as part of - like you said, you were his general manager, so as part of all your - your duties, that was one of them?
0:47:03 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
And I did do that. So the first person, I believe, that I introduced him to as a masseuse was somebody called [RETRACTED]. She was, I don’t know, mid, late 20s. Professional masseuse.
0:47:19 TODD BLANCHE
And was this something that happened early on in your relationship or...? And again, I know we’re talking about the ‘90s, but are we talking about early ‘90s, or is this later on?
0:47:27 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
So in terms of massage, I am a - I have a lot of injuries. I do a lot of dangerous sports, and have had multiple serious accidents, and walk without any lameness because of physical therapy and massage. I’ve - that to me is a very - it’s medicinal for me. So Epstein, whatever his massage situation, whatever - he loved massage. And if I met somebody who I thought was a good masseuse or masseur, I introduced them. And he - because I got them, and he asked me if I did, and I said yes. And that’s - I’m pretty sure that would’ve—well, I don’t remember—‘93, ‘92, early.
0:48:19 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:48:19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
From the beginning.
0:48:22 TODD BLANCHE
So - so go ahead. So then what happens over the next...? You know, like, there’s been - there’s a ton of writing, and a ton of, I guess, testimony as well, but also public reporting about how the recruiting was a very aggressive effort that you were a part of, that he was a part of, and others, to try to find more and more masseuses. What - is that - is that true, and what role did you have in that?
0:48:49 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
That was partially true.
0:48:50 TODD BLANCHE
Okay. So it is true that I found masseuses, and he became more insistent - he - he - he liked “new” all the time. He got bored. So he would be bored with a masseuse, and he would say, “Find me a new masseuse.” (Inaudible) I am the entire opposite--if I find someone that I like, I stay with them. I’m, like, I don’t want new. He would drive for new, so that is true. And in my effort to find them, I would go to massage spas. Like legitimate spas--not - we’re not talking, you know, the funky ones that people have. So - and I - if I got a massage from somebody in a spa that was - I liked - I liked, I asked them if they would do home visits. If they said yes, I would ask them to come to the house, and he would see if he liked them or not. But these were people who worked in spas. I never, ever checked their age, and I never checked their credentials. I never asked for a certificate.
0:49:50 TODD BLANCHE
What...
0:49:52 DAVID MARKUS
But just to be clear, you never thought anybody was under 18?
0:49:54 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
It never crossed my...
0:49:55 DAVID MARKUS
Okay.
0:49:55 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
...I never - no, that was never my - that was never a drive.
0:49:58 TODD BLANCHE
What - what did you know at the time about him - Mr. Epstein requiring masseuses to be naked, or require masseuses to either perform sexual favors for Mr. Epstein, or to be there if Mr. Epstein masturbated, or things like that? And again, I’m asking you about a 15-year period or whatever, 10-year period, so I appreciate that’s a very broad question, so answer it in a way that, you know, addresses what you’ve been charged with doing, but also what’s been said about you.
0:50:31 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Okay, so I don’t - the ‘90s I don’t think that I ever thought - that never would cross my mind. I’m not sure that I thought about that in those contexts at all until his arrest and those papers came out. But I believe the - the subject of the - the question that your asking me, I believe started in the 2000s.
0:50:56 TODD BLANCHE
So in - in the 2000 time period?
0:50:58 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Yes, 2000-and...
0:51:00 TODD BLANCHE
Why do you - why do you think...
0:51:01 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
...2000.
0:51:01 TODD BLANCHE
...like, what - what in your mind makes you think that that’s the time that it started?
0:51:05 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I think because in December of 2001 he met Virginia Giuffre. And I think Virginia Giuffre was responsible for that in its entirety. And the reason I believe that - so this - she - she was a self-confessed - having been sexually abused as a young girl, and was trained—her words I’m quoting now, not mine—in all the arts of whatever that is - it’s a sex program or - by a man called Ron Eppinger, who was her pimp from when she was 14 I believe, or 15, I don’t know, and in her book describes him training her to be what...
0:52:05
...every man wants in all its manners, fellatio and everything else. I believe that then what happened was that he met her, and she came as a masseuse to his house - in December of 2001 is when I think it started. Now, what their relationship was, or what happened with them in that early period of time, I cannot say. What I can say is that he liked her, and she started to travel with him at that time period. I believe - I know then what happened was that she - when she first started to see him, or first came into his orbit as his masseuse, or whatever, she was engaged to be married and wearing an engagement ring, and was living with her fiancé. She broke up after a few months...
0:53:05
...with her fiancé, and took up with the local drug dealer. So let’s say after four or five months of - in the time period when she was seeing Epstein, let’s say we’re now May/June of 2002 - or is it two-th- I don’t - I can’t - from whenever she hits the - whatever that is, if that’s 2000... I think it’s 2000, I’m sorry, I think is when she met him, December of 2000. So - so then you go through - I don’t remember; you’ll have to look.
0:53:39 TODD BLANCHE
Okay. I’m not holding you to exact dates.
0:53:42 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
No, I mean, I’m just trying to...
0:53:42 TODD BLANCHE
I’m not - I appreciate...
0:53:43 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I’m giving the... So then I think - so she - she takes up with the local drug dealer and she becomes druggie-druggie. Like, you know how druggies - well, maybe you don’t. I live with a lot in Tallahassee. They become even more unreliable than normal. And at some point--she’s now working somewhere else--he stopped seeing her because he doesn’t like people who do drugs. And I think that not seeing her lasted five or six months, and in that period of time she got arrested for theft, and she had a warrant out for her arrest. Now, this I’ve pieced together because this piece I didn’t know. She then called Epstein to - to have help avoiding the warrant for her arrest, and he sent her to Thailand to get a massage-therapy license.
0:54:50
This is the bit that I guess. This is the bit that I extrapolated. In the period of time from when she came back to when she left, he asked her to replace herself as his masseuse or whatever - whatever she was doing. And she brought the first replacement for her that would’ve been one of the accusers in my case, I think, would’ve been [REDACTED]. And that - and then everyone who came subsequent to [REDACTED] or simultaneously—if she wasn’t the first, I don’t know--everyone - every single person who came to his house came through [REDACTED] and her boyfriend Tony, and then whoever else underneath her. And that is how it started.
0:55:35 LEAH SAFFIAN
Tony Figueroa.
0:55:35 TODD BLANCHE
So before her...
0:55:37 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Huh?
0:55:38 LEAH SAFFIAN
Tony Figueroa.
0:55:38 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Tony Figueroa was her boyfriend.
0:55:39 TODD BLANCHE
...before her--so now going back into the ‘90s—you don’t believe that Mr. Epstein was abusing masseuses?
0:55:55 DAVID MARKUS
Underage.
0:55:57 TODD BLANCHE
Or over-age. I mean, I think - well, I - I’m using “abuse” in the broadest sense of the word, because I’m assuming that you--you - you said that you have no idea of the year--you - you always assumed the masseuses were over-age, right?
0:56:09 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I did.
0:56:09 TODD BLANCHE
So when I’m talking about abuse, I’m even talking about an adult masseuse who comes in to give a massage, and is told to take off their clothes, told they’re not going to get paid if they don’t take off their clothes, basically suggested they had to watch him masturbate, like the things that have been publicly said about what he did.
0:56:24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I’m not...
0:56:23 TODD BLANCHE
For now I’m not - I’m not...
0:56:25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
...I’m...
0:56:25 TODD BLANCHE
...distinguishing between adults or - or - or young - or underage women for that. I’m saying abuse.
0:56:29 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Well, I’m - I’m going to think that that would’ve been a habit.
0:56:31 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:56:32 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I’m going to say that the massage game was a habit. And I think...
0:56:37 DAVID MARKUS
What does that mean?
0:56:38 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
That means that I’m sure that he didn’t suddenly start having relations with masseuses in 2002.
0:56:46 DAVID MARKUS
Okay.
0:56:47 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I am sure he must have had relations with masseuses, who knows when?
0:56:51 TODD BLANCHE
But you’re saying, as far as you—I - I used the word “abuse”— you’re saying that as far as you sit here today, you would describe that more as “consensual,” meaning the masseuse did those - did this willingly?
0:57:05 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I - I saw him with lots of masseuses. I never saw a single masseuse ever look unhappy, or not come back, or whatever. So based on my observation, I don’t think that if you are being raped—as now he’s, like, this prolific—I just - I just can’t imagine why you would return.
0:57:28 TODD BLANCHE
That’s not what you observed at the time?
0:57:30 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Not what I observed at the time, no.
0:57:33 TODD BLANCHE
I want to - we’re - we’re going to spend a little - we’re going to spend more time on this issue, because I - I think it’s important. But just going back to kind of the - the question that I started with in this area, which is that - ties into the blackmail issue. So we talked about people that were his clients, and you’ve mentioned President Clinton, and then early on you...
0:57:58 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Oh, I never said he was a client.
0:58:00 TODD BLANCHE
I - I did not say you said. I’m saying when you talk about his clients...
0:58:02 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Oh okay, right, okay [LAUGHTER].
0:58:03 TODD BLANCHE
...and then puts his clients off to the side...
0:58:05 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Okay.
0:58:05 TODD BLANCHE
...and then you mentioned some other people. You mentioned President Clinton...
0:58:07 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Yes.
0:58:07 TODD BLANCHE
...you mentioned President Trump early on. Who were other famous [slash] politicians - who were other individuals in Mr. Epstein’s life during that time period? So the early ‘90s...
0:58:20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
It - we’re into the ‘90s. Let’s - should we just...?
0:58:24 TODD BLANCHE
Yes.
0:58:24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Okay. Congressman McMillen.
0:58:26 TODD BLANCHE
Say that again.
0:58:26 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
McMillen.
0:58:28 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:58:29 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Henry Rosovsky, who was the provost of Harvard. Hang on (inaudible).
0:58:34 TODD BLANCHE
Sure. You’re looking at your - your notes.
0:58:37 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Okay.
0:58:37 TODD BLANCHE
Go ahead. Go ahead.
0:58:40 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Joe Pagano, Jerry Goldsmith, Joe Roberts, Kenny Lipper, Dan Abramson... I don’t know if in the ‘90s Tom Pritzker... Ace [Greenberg], Jimmy Cayne, Lou Ranieri. I mean, there were...
0:58:56 TODD BLANCHE
What about the Royal Family?
0:58:58 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
No, he didn’t know them in the ‘90s.
0:59:00 TODD BLANCHE
What about the - the - what about Prince Andrew?
0:59:04 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Didn’t know him in the ‘90s.
0:59:06 TODD BLANCHE
When did...?
0:59:07 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Oh, well - is that right?
0:59:09 TODD BLANCHE
I was not there, I do not know.
0:59:10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
[LAUGHTER] Sorry.
0:59:15 TODD BLANCHE
So I don’t want you to ha- to worry about exact dates; you’re - you’re not positive about that. But you don’t have a re- specific recollection of that being in the ‘90s?
0:59:22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
No.
0:59:22 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
0:59:23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
But I - I can - I can date it for you I think.
0:59:25 TODD BLANCHE
N...
0:59:26 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
But I can’t give you the...
0:59:27 TODD BLANCHE
That’s okay. Yeah, that’s fine.
0:59:28 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Okay.
0:59:29 TODD BLANCHE
So with respect to just--and we’ll take a break in a minute to get some food--but just with respect to Mr. - with respect to the individuals you just talked about—so again, focus on the ‘90s—and so the people that I’m talking about right now—and we might add some names later—so we’re talking about the - the clients that he worked with, which you’ve mentioned several of. And I know that that wasn’t exhaustive, but you mentioned several of them. And then the - the kind of what I called “famous friends,” but the - the prominent individuals that were in his life in the ‘90s. Did - did does any stick out in your mind as having received massages, all of them?
1:00:07 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Henry - Henry Rosovsky received a massage.
1:00:10 TODD BLANCHE
And why do you - why does that stick out in your memory?
1:00:13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Because I saw him in a bathrobe [LAUGHTER] at 71st Street, and he had received a massage, he told me.
1:00:20 TODD BLANCHE
And do you know whether that - whether there was any - whether the masseuse was naked during that massage?
1:00:26 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I wouldn’t have any idea.
1:00:27 TODD BLANCHE
Do you know whether he...?
1:00:27 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I doubt it. He was, like, in his 80s.
1:00:29 TODD BLANCHE
Say that again.
1:00:29 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I doubt it. He was, like, in his 80s. [LAUGHTER]
1:00:31 TODD BLANCHE
Okay, so - but do you know - notwithstanding his age...
1:00:33 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Oh, Minsky. Harv- [MARVIN] Minsk... Sorry.
1:00:36 TODD BLANCHE
Say that again.
1:00:36 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Minsky was another person.
1:00:39 TODD BLANCHE
Do you know whether, for example, President Clinton ever received a massage?
1:00:42 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I don’t believe he did.
1:00:44 TODD BLANCHE
And what makes you say you don’t believe he did?
1:00:45 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Well, because I don’t - so that’s a good question. [LAUGHTER] The time that Epstein and President Clinton spent together, the only times I believe - well, obviously they traveled. There was that - you know, they came - they went on the plane 26 times or whatever. That would be one journey. So they spent time on the plane together, and I don’t believe there was ever a massage on the plane. So that would’ve been the only time that I think that President Clinton could have even received a massage. And he didn’t, because I was there.
1:01:17 TODD BLANCHE
And you mentioned that - early - in the very beginning of the conversation you mentioned President Trump in the early ‘90s.
1:01:24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Yes.
1:01:24 TODD BLANCHE
What - what’s - what did you observer as far as President Trump and his relationship with you or Mr. Epstein?
1:01:31 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Well, I just want to say for my relationship with President Trump—“relationship” is a big word—but I just want to say that I met him, or I believe I may have, because of my father in the ‘90s.
1:01:42 TODD BLANCHE
Yep, okay.
1:01:43 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
So my father liked him very much, and he was - loved - really liked his wife as well, because they were both Czechoslovakian. And as far as I’m concerned, President Trump was always very cordial and very kind to me. And I just want to say that I find - I - I admire his extraordinary achievement in becoming the President now. And I like him, and I’ve always liked him. So that is the sum and substance of my entire relationship with him.
1:02:13 TODD BLANCHE
What about Mr. Epstein’s relationship with him?
1:02:17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I don’t know how they met, and I don’t know how they became friends. I certainly saw them together. And I remember the few times I observed them together that they were friendly. I mean, they seemed friendly.
1:02:26 TODD BLANCHE
Was that in social settings or was that in private settings.
1:02:30 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I believe I only ever saw them in social settings. I don’t recall any private settings.
1:02:34 TODD BLANCHE
Did you ever - have you ever been to Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach?
1:02:39 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I have.
1:02:39 TODD BLANCHE
In what time period are you thinking about when you say yes?
1:02:44 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Well, I don’t remember when the President purchased Mar-a-Lago, so from whenever it turned into a club I went there. And I was - loved going there; it was excellent.
1:02:56 TODD BLANCHE
Did - did - did you go there alone or with Mr. Epstein?
1:02:59 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Mostly alone.
1:03:00 TODD BLANCHE
Do you know whether...?
1:03:00 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Only times I went there was for an event maybe once or twice.
1:03:04 TODD BLANCHE
And do you know whether Mr. Epstein ever went there?
1:03:06 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I - I believe he did. But again, we really were - he - he didn’t take me with him all the time. So he would go and... Oh, right. He never - I never - well, he did from time to time, but he would go alone. I think he would maybe go himself to the spa. I certainly did.
1:03:31 TODD BLANCHE
Did you ever observe President Trump receive a massage?
1:03:35 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Never.
1:03:37 TODD BLANCHE
Did you ever observe - you said that you - you were - I mean, have you seen the - there’s photographs, public photographs of Mr. Epstein and President Trump together.
1:03:51 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Yes.
1:03:51 TODD BLANCHE
And there’s photographs of - I think you’re - you’re in some of the photographs, as well.
1:03:55 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Yes.
1:03:56 TODD BLANCHE
Those all appear to be social settings.
1:03:58 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Yes.
1:03:58 TODD BLANCHE
Do you...?
1:03:59 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
That’s - that’s my memory, they were social settings. I don’t know - Epstein’s - if he had - whatever the nature of the President’s “friendship,” if you will, or however you want to define that with Epstein, I was - never witnessed. I think they were friendly like people are in social settings. I don’t - I don’t think they were close friends, or I certainly never witnessed the President in any of - I don’t recall ever seeing him in his house, for instance. I actually never saw the President in any type of massage setting. I never witnessed the President in any inappropriate setting in any way. The President was never inappropriate with anybody... In the times that I was with him he was a gentleman, in all respects.
1:04:46 TODD BLANCHE
When is the last time you think you saw, in person, President Trump?
1:04:53 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
It was - it’s - it’s been a long time. Probably not - sometime in the two- beginning of the t- mid - mid 2000s maybe. And it would only have been a social setting, as far as I recall.
1:05:07 TODD BLANCHE
And did you ever hear Mr. Epstein or anybody say that President Trump had done anything inappropriate with the masseuses or with anybody in your world?
1:05:19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Absolutely never, in any context.
1:05:21 TODD BLANCHE
And do you know whether masseuses from Mar-a-Lago’s spa ended up giving massages to - private massages to Mr. Epstein? I’m not asking for what you may have read, but from - at the time, from your personal knowledge, do you know whether that’s true?
1:05:42 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I - I don’t - I don’t recall. Is it possible? Yes. But I don’t remember - I don’t remember that. So I don’t want to - I don’t recall that, but it’s possible.
1:05:52 TODD BLANCHE
Do you have recollection of you ever recruiting a masseuse from Mar-a-Lago’s spa to give - to go give a private massage to Mr. Epstein?
1:06:01 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
I’ve - I’ve never recruited a masseuse from Mar-a-Lago for that, as far as I remember. I can’t ever recollect doing that.
1:06:10 TODD BLANCHE
Okay, so what - what I think we should do now—it’s about 12:15—we’ll take a - we’ll take a break, and we will come back in a little bit.
1:06:19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL
Okay.
1:06:19 TODD BLANCHE
Okay.
[12:15 PM]
Ellie is an author, editor, and owner of Red Pencil Transcripts, and works with filmmakers, podcasts, and journalists all over the world. She lives with her family just outside of New York City.
Blanche’s interview questions were nonsensical but that was by design…and Ghislaine’s responses were gibberish and lies.
However, I noticed that he went out of his way to cut some of her responses short because she was telling on herself.
Blanche soft balled (no pun intended) the interview. It’s of course a cover up. Awesome work Ellie.